Overwintering poly nuc

[Illo]

I will be overwintering a small colony in a 6 frame poly nuc this year. As many have pointed out, the roof is a bit thin, so they have an additional eke with about 70mm of kingspan in. Is there any merit to making an insulated kingspan jacket for the whole thing, or is that just OTT?

LJ

 

[enrico]

Ott IMHO !

 

[drstitson]

agree OTT.

the sides aren't an issue - especially if you fill the feeder with insulation and position it so that that side faces north or east.

i have deep sided roofs for mine - using thick ply off scraps, LS sized roofing metal and 50mm kingspan within. stopped condensation on underside of poly CB at a stroke.

also helps to hold down the nuc (although all mine are strapped down too).

 

[Raf]

Overwintering Nuc

I overwintered a poly nuc last year, bees not only survived but went on to be one of my strongest colonies this year. I did not insulate the poly box in any way, just used it as it was.

I did notice however that poly nucs are prone to collecting condensation under the plastic cover that sits between the frame tops and the lid. I am overwintering another nuc this winter, but have replaced the plastic "quilt" with a glass one, raised by four drawing pins at each corner. Have found this stops the condensation problem.

Good luck

 

[user 6228]

agree OTT.

the sides aren't an issue - especially if you fill the feeder with insulation and position it so that that side faces north or east.

i have deep sided roofs for mine - using thick ply off scraps, LS sized roofing metal and 50mm kingspan within. stopped condensation on underside of poly CB at a stroke.

also helps to hold down the nuc (although all mine are strapped down too).

If you asked me in spring I would have said overkill, but now I disagree. It is worthwhile, having measured the thermal conductance of a poly nuc both with and without a 35mm kingspan full jacket. The nuc with jacket was as good as a my tree, but You have to understand a nuc at best has only 1/2 the power output of hive. So it really needs to be significantly better to match the heat output. You should be looking at 50mm plus kingspan full jacket. It not opinion it's measured heat flow.

 

[oliver90owner]

raised by four drawing pins at each corner

Oh no, not another match stick man! Or the equivalent for a poly nuc?

Let me ask the obvious question: Why 4 drawing pins at each corner? You dont need to answer that .. but it does demonstrate the level of the matchstick brigade....?

One further question: Do you think a little less through draught 24/7 and a little more top insulation might have been the better option?

RAB

 

[user 6228]

raised by four drawing pins at each corner

Oh no, not another match stick man! Or the equivalent for a poly nuc?

Let me ask the obvious question: Why 4 drawing pins at each corner? You dont need to answer that .. but it does demonstrate the level of the matchstick brigade....?

One further question: Do you think a little less through draught 24/7 and a little more top insulation might have been the better option?

RAB

Well spotted RAB I missed that...
One might ask :if drawing pins why bother with poly at all.
A small air leak at the top loses a lot of heat.
In fact air leaks are the bane of my experiments because they can introduce such large heat losses. And the warmer the hive the bigger the heat loss the air leak causes.

Even in a wooden hive the matchstick trick loses the half the meagre heat retained.

Those bees don't slap that propolis on for the fun of it.

 

[itma]

I did notice however that poly nucs are prone to collecting condensation under the plastic cover that sits between the frame tops and the lid. I am overwintering another nuc this winter, but have replaced the plastic "quilt" with a glass one, raised by four drawing pins at each corner. Have found this stops the condensation problem.

Good luck

Good grief.

You get condensation on the coldest point.
Unfortunately, because the roof is a bit thin, the coversheet gets colder than the walls, and condensation occurs on the sheet where
1/ it is highly visible (see through covers are great) and
2/ it is in the worst possible place for the bees - dripping onto them.

As I (never mind anyone else) have stated enough times already -- coverboard condensation can be prevented by insulating above the coverboard. Make the hive warmer, not colder!
There is no need to try and make the whole hive colder than the coverboard was.
Oh, and glass will be even worse as an 'insulating' cover than plastic.

Epic, epic fail. Sorry.

 

[Swarm]

Nine posts. I doubt he will reach ten.

 

[drstitson]

derek - just for info - i wasn't implying that polynucs were optimally insulated all round. just that being practical and taking simplest route to improve on the design - most bang for buck/time/effort - that top insulation was best compromise. at end of the day the poly nucs, even with the roof as is, are better than an old style thin ply nuc.

my roofs were "designed" simply using what i had available with minimal cutting required so that i could knock up a batch quickly. the aim being to get kingspan safely on top of the nuc.

sure - in a perfect world one would have snug sleeved jackets for all nucs (or perhaps start from scratch and do without the ****** poly inner.

 

[drstitson]

"I did notice however that poly nucs are prone to collecting condensation under the plastic cover that sits between the frame tops and the lid. I am overwintering another nuc this winter, but have replaced the plastic "quilt" with a glass one, raised by four drawing pins at each corner. Have found this stops the condensation problem."

not only does the resulting through draught strip heat from the nuc, negating any benefits of poly BUT the glass "quilt" will be much thicker than the supplied plastic sheet, raising the roof and worsening the effect.

glass will be colder than plastic - the reason you have no condensation now is that ALL the warm damp air is leaking out. the reason you will have no condensation at the end of winter may well be dead colony - no respiration = no warm damp air (having used up all their limited stores trying to keep warm.

the clear sheet is fine to use and ensures a tight roof seal. what is needed is top insulation to prevent condensation above the bees.

 

[Luminos]

I'm surprised the bees don't propolise the gap made by the drawing pins.
Some of mine propolise everything, even filling the gap between the frame lugs and the side of the BB

 

[drstitson]

"I'm surprised the bees don't propolise the gap made by the drawing pins."

perhaps they are those map pins with chunky plastic bits.

 

[oliver90owner]

Depends when it is done, too.

Waiting until the bees have sealed up their cavity and settled into a cluster and then doing it is a sure way of introducing unwanted draughts 24/7 for the rest of the winter months.

RAB

 

[Raf]

It never ceases to amaze and frustrate me how the simplest of questions are over anylised and made more complicated than they should be by beekeepers.

As the meercat chap says "Its Simples", if it works dont change it, if a polynuc can take the bees healthily through a winter, which by my experience they can WITH NO ALTERATIONS, then they work, simple as that. If it helps to place a drawing pin, matchstick, twig or a slice of your Aunt Margarets knickers under the cover to eliviate condensation without a detrimantal effect on the bees, then it works! If you dont like using pins, matchsticks etc etc, then simply dont use them!

 

[parkranger]

It never ceases to amaze and frustrate me how the simplest of questions are over anylised and made more complicated than they should be by beekeepers.

As the meercat chap says "Its Simples", if it works dont change it, if a polynuc can take the bees healthily through a winter, which by my experience they can WITH NO ALTERATIONS, then they work, simple as that. If it helps to place a drawing pin, matchstick, twig or a slice of your Aunt Margarets knickers under the cover to eliviate condensation without a detrimantal effect on the bees, then it works! If you dont like using pins, matchsticks etc etc, then simply dont use them!

Raf

That is the point that others are trying to make. The introduction of drawing pins, matchsticks, twigs or maggie's knickers would only alleviate the problem of condensation on the crownboard by introducing cold air, losing the warmth that beekeepers strive for in the winter and it WILL have a detrimental effect on the bees.

 

[BeeJayBee]

If it helps to place a drawing pin, matchstick, twig or a slice of your Aunt Margarets knickers under the cover to eliviate condensation

An analogy - on the rare occasions during the summer when our house gets very hot we open the loft hatch very slightly. The warm air rises, bringing cooler air at ground level, which make everything much more pleasant. During the colder months the loft hatch remains closed, it's also well insulated to avoid condensation forming on the (toughened glass/borrowed light) surface where the cooler air in the attic meets the warm air from the house.

I'm fairly sure it was Muswell Metro who identified Wedmore(?) as the culprit who introduced the idea of ventilating the top of a hive. Previously beekeepers had used insulation - hessian, bags filled with straw, and so on - above the crown board to keep heat in.

If you're seeing condensation on the plastic crown board of a poly hive the chances are that only appears when you take the roof off - when cold air outside meets the warmer surface of the crown board. As soon as you replace the poly roof back the condensation should disappear, but you won't see it happening because you can't see through the thick polystyrene.

It is, of course, up to you what you do. I know beekeepers who leave the large hole in the feeder board open all winter. Their overwinter losses tend to be proportionally higher than those who don't.

 

[oliver90owner]

Wouldn't you say that if these 'extra' items were part of the hive, they should have been supplied with the hive by the manufacturer? They are not and are not needed.

Perhaps you can explain how your matchsticks, knickers or whatever are not supplied with the hive?

 

[Hebeegeebee]

"Free knickers with every hive" might be the marketing push for 2014!

Yes I think it was Wedmore who was responsible for the matchsticks.

And I've seen plastic crownboards have water condense on them within seconds of opening the hive.

I've had polynucs since they first came out. This is the first year I have over-wintered in them. One is a 6 framer one has 8 so I will be interested to see how the bees fare compared to 5 frame and 8 frame wooden nucs.

 

[sipa]

If there is any condensation in these poly nucs, it is minimal and does not present any problems for the bees. In fact I've seen the bees drinking it.

The thing with poly is that it doesn't absorb any moisture, so any excess will only run down the sides and out of the OMF.

Survivability of the bees is the real question, is it better in poly or not ?

In my opinion it is a resounding YES