Opinion on this

[MartinL]

It would be interesting to know if he got any honey?

He is in effect reducing the queen's laying by 40% and similarly loading the workers by the same fraction.
Small wonder then, that the colony is unable to build in the numbers to support swarming!!

Wouldn't give them much chance of coming out of winter in any fit state for a quick spring build either.


Just like the statistician who "proved" Ice-cream causes skin cancer.

Periods of high ice cream sales were recorded ahead of later increased incidence of skin cancers. 100% true but think about it?

Sounds like some government backed idiot who cant see the wood for the trees

 

[charlievictorbravo]

He is in effect reducing the queen's laying by 40% and similarly loading the workers by the same fraction.
Small wonder then, that the colony is unable to build in the numbers to support swarming!!

Wouldn't give them much chance of coming out of winter in any fit state for a quick spring build either.


Just like the statistician who "proved" Ice-cream causes skin cancer.

Periods of high ice cream sales were recorded ahead of later increased incidence of skin cancers. 100% true but think about it?

Sounds like some government backed idiot who cant see the wood for the trees

The method works - 3600 beekeepers in eastern Europe have had success with it and Dr Linhart tested it for 6 years. Our problem is that we don't understand why it works. The academic paper in English is not readily understandable, which may be why we're all a bit twitchy about the method. I did not understand how the relative weight of workers and drones was relevant to the distribution of genes of the colony but weights were included in some of the calculations. What we need is an expert!

CVB

 

[REDWOOD]

I think it's common sense why they don't go into swarm mode, for example, pinch a frame of brood every week from a hive and give it foundation it will never build up strong enough to swarm. Giving them drone foundation is a good way of theoretically giving them a brood break which suppressed the colony growth further and probably nothing to do with phenomenons. Now ask them to build their own comb takes a lot of time with a colony that has been depleted of workers because of the brood break. I don't think ill be giving this a go next year as there are better ways to deal in swarm prevention or reaction.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I think it's common sense why they don't go into swarm mode, for example, pinch a frame of brood every week from a hive and give it foundation it will never build up strong enough to swarm.

Nor build up much of a surplus of stores.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Nor build up much of a surplus of stores.

Sounds like an ideal system for the majority of hobby beekeepers then, as apparently they are not really interested in honey, so I read on here.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Sounds like an ideal system for the majority of hobby beekeepers then, as apparently they are not really interested in honey, so I read on here.

The way I read it, it would suit commercial beekeepers because you get 30% more honey, 40% more wax, you don't do swarm-prevention inspections every 7 days so there a 60% reduction in labour over the summer.

For a hobby beekeeper, there'd be nothing to do over the summer - where's the fun in that? The interesting aspect is to do with varroa mites - intuitively, you'd think there'd be a lot more mites with all of those drones but it seems that the mites stick with the drones and drone brood so the workers and worker brood remain largely un-bothered by them. It seems wrong but that's what Linhart says.

Give it a go with a few hives next year, HM, and see if it works in our climate - there are more instructions, particularly regarding timing of the various manipulations, here http://thermosolarhive.com/en/new-m...-evolutionarily-stable-reproduction-strategy/

CVB

 

[MartinL]

The interesting aspect is to do with varroa mites - intuitively, you'd think there'd be a lot more mites with all of those drones but it seems that the mites stick with the drones and drone brood so the workers and worker brood remain largely un-bothered by them. It seems wrong but that's what Linhart says.

So he's breeding varroa in greatly increased numbers too with his drones

And no drone culling just let em fly and mate with Queens from elsewhere infested in mites

All to stop his colonies swarming???

How do you define "largely in-bothered" is that translated by the Doc too??

 

[Finman]

.
I looked the summary of Linhard's article, and I did not understand what they are doing. At less normal beekeeper cannot understand how he can use that information in his hive nursing. .

Symmetry of something...

My opinion is: Forget it...

About spring build up metodology... More or less, people have their own habits. I cannot call them "methods".

What I have found in my beekeeping is, that beekeepers do things in very different way, but the result, as average yield is often the same.

And some beekeeper think that nursing varroa is more important than nursing bees do honey.

But but.... I put same size hives on different pastures. IT is normal that the average yield on different spots can be 3 fold. Even 5 fold.

Draw from that...
.

About swarming.... Get a non swarming bee strain...

And finally . If a beekeeper does not mind about honey yield, it is same how he keeps his hives.
.
..

 

[MartinL]

.
I looked the summary of Linhard's article, and I did not understand what they are doing. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

My opinion is: Forget it...

. . . . . . . . . . . . ..

 

[madasafish]

.
I looked the summary of Linhard's article, and I did not understand what they are doing. At less normal beekeeper cannot understand how he can use that information in his hive nursing. .

Symmetry of something...

My opinion is: Forget it...


.
..

My rule of thumb in life: IF I cannot understand something, there is a reason. Usually, if it's a published article, it's written to be unintelligible as it is often junk science.

KISS is a great motto.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

So he's breeding varroa in greatly increased numbers too with his drones
........
How do you define "largely in-bothered" is that translated by the Doc too??

I'm not advocating this method - just trying to understand it. Here's what the Doc says:
Benefits of the method

There is a myth among people that drones deprive the colony of its honey. It is necessary to realize that drones are fed with protein-based food (pollen), not with saccharide-based food (honey). Neither adult drones consume honey on a large scale. They leave their colony only for short trips to mating sites and take their stock of honey in their crop. This loss is, however, minimal. It is compensated for by the fact that with their large biomass that is clustered on the combs, drones help warm the brood up and thus release thousands of foraging bees to work on flowers. Based on my observation, the flight frequency at the hive entrances increases with drone rearing 2.6 times. I came to this conclusion by comparing the air traffic at the entrances of hives with swarm control drone rearing and a control group of 10 neighboring hives. In bee colonies with drones, there is a much higher flight activity of the worker bees even when the weather worsens. This is a very valuable feature, increasing honey yields. It has been confirmed by other beekeepers testing this method. And the benefits of drone rearing continue.

In my opinion, the greatest benefit is the vast amount of time and effort it saves. By establishing drone rearing in two visits in spring and not entering the brood chamber for the rest of the season, the beekeeper saves a great amount of time he or she would otherwise have to invest in swarm control. When applied correctly, this method absolutely eliminates swarming, as the swarming fever never occurs.

Many beekeepers try to cut out the drone comb to get the colony rid of the Varroa mite. And they are afraid that drone rearing would increase the number of mites to a level that would endanger the colony. But the opposite is true. As long as there is drone brood present in the colony, the Varroa mite holds only to it. Thus the drone comb reduces the parasite’s pressure on the worker bee caste.

The second sentence is news to me - drone fed largely on protein-based food - I'd have thought they need a fair bit of carbohydrate to move about and fly.

I don't think the Doc's work is dog-science but the translation are sometimes faulty. 3600 beekeepers in eastern Europe can't all be hoodwinked by the Doc's charms!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Another one who thinks bees exist on fresh air - sets the tone for the rest of his 'science' I think

 

[Al-In-Italy]

...The second sentence is news to me - drone fed largely on protein-based food - I'd have thought they need a fair bit of carbohydrate to move about and fly...

The same thought occurred to me, but perhaps it's more complicated than that. The paper mentions that one of the useful functions of drones in the hive is helping to maintain the correct temperature for brood development. So how much of the hive's available energy budget is consumed by drones flying ("wasted", from the beekeeper's perspective) and how much usefully spent in the hive?

As for the consumption of protein by drones, they are significantly larger than workers so if follows that increasing drone brood production must require the collection of more pollen.

While I fully understand why people are highly sceptical about this whole concept since if flies in the face of long-established practices that work well, I keep coming back to the claims that the method requires less disruption of the life of the hive and results in healthy hives, increased honey yields and queen supersedure.

I'm not going to jump in with both feet, but I am intrigued enough that I think we'll give it a shot with one of our hives next year. I'll try to remember to revive this thread in a year or so. Then, the sceptics can either say, "I told you so!" or, "One season with one hive proves nothing! You were just very lucky."

 

[MartinL]

. . . . . Usually, if it's a published article, it's written to be unintelligible as it is often junk science.
.

Little Tommy is called to the front of the class to explain his holiday nature project,

Teacher; "Well,Tommy, what have you to show us"?

Tommy produces a spider, puts it on the table.

Tommy; "spider go right"

The spider move 2inches to the right.

Tommy; "spider go left"

The spider move 2inches to the left.

Teacher; "well that's amazing"

Tommy; "Wait , there's more"

He pulls all the legs off the spider and puts it back on the table.

Tommy; "spider go right", "spider go left"
Obviously the spider doesn't move.

Teacher; "I don't understand, what have you discovered from this cruel experiment?"

Tommy; "Spiders hear things through their legs"!

 

[MartinL]

3600 beekeepers in eastern Europe can't all be hoodwinked by the Doc's charms![
/QUOTE]



EASTERN EUROPE??

Perhaps you should look back to the Eighties?

 

[Finman]

.
There are a research from USA. When amount of drones is 20%, it drops the yield clearly.
20% means that it is 2 frames out of 10 brood frames. Bees invest to brood, but 20% produces consumers instead of foragers.

Natural bee colonies have on average 25% drone cells. Greetings to natural comb beekeepers.

 

[Finman]

doc

There is a myth among people that drones deprive the colony of its honey. It is necessary to realize that drones are fed with protein-based food (pollen), not with saccharide-based food (honey). Neither adult drones consume honey on a large scale. They leave their colony only for short trips to mating sites and take their stock of honey in their crop.

Many beekeepers try to cut out the drone comb to get the colony rid of the Varroa mite. And they are afraid that drone rearing would increase the number of mites to a level that would endanger the colony. But the opposite is true. As long as there is drone brood present in the colony, the Varroa mite holds only to it. Thus the drone comb reduces the parasite’s pressure on the worker bee caste.[/I]

The second sentence is news to me - drone fed largely on protein-based food - I'd have thought they need a!

That guy does not know what he is writing.

Mites lay eggs as well in worker brood as into drone cells.

.a drone consumes honey to living. To where does it needs ptotein when it is adult?

 

[Finman]

.
Sare research reports that natural comb hives had on average 33% drone cells.

 

[maddydog]

.
Sare research reports that natural comb hives had on average 33% drone cells.

And presumably don't swarm. Which begs the question that if all colonies are 'natural' how do they reproduce?

 

[charlievictorbravo]

And presumably don't swarm. Which begs the question that if all colonies are 'natural' how do they reproduce?

Having read the Doc's stuff (several times to try to understand the translation), my understanding is that bees swarm to distribute the genes of the queen. Because genes of the drone are 100% of the queen's genes - no male input - using lots of drones to distribute the queen's genes locally is another method available for the bees as an alternative to swarming.

The calculations used by the Doc to determine the number of drone cells needed in the average sized colony are in the paper and are not higher mathematics, just not always readily understood due to the translation issue. The "Talking with Bees" guy says "You need 3,920 cm2 (608 square inches) of drone comb. This means 4 brood frames in 14×12 brood box. This also means that to create enough worker bees you need to put a super below the 14×12" so even with a 14x12, you need extra brood space from a nadired super for the queen to produce enough worker bees.

I'm pleased Al-in-Italy is going to give it a go next year. He'll get a lot of grief from the usual suspects (ask Tremyflo about that in respect of her Flow Hive!) but I hope it confirms that the method can work in our temperate maritime climate as well as it does in the continental climate of Czech Republic and Slovakia.

CVB