Not treating varroa

[Finman]

.
£150 = 15 kg honey.
.

 

[B+.]

.
£150 = 15 kg honey.
.

Perhaps now....not then!

The point is, that I learned that I didn't need the chemicals.

 

[mbc]

Not necessarily....but its better than doing nothing,

So, these high breeding values are dispersed through my own queens, thus improving the local bee.

Amc are never going to be a dominant force in natural mating of honey bees in the British isles so your two statements above are false, what you're actually doing is messing up the gene pool and causing a hybrid situation. Never mind, a generation or two after you've gone things will settle down and maybe some of the genes in your bees will have survived to improve the general mix in the locality, but I doubt it.

 

[Finman]

Perhaps now....not then!

The point is, that I learned that I didn't need the chemicals.

I learned too and I sold honey when I studied.

I have chemistry degrees and I knew how to use chemicals

 

[mbc]

The first queen I found with measurable varroa resistance had significant A.M.m. genetics. If I were in your area, I would be looking for varroa resistance in the remnants of this race.

I believe NIHBS in Ireland were distributing varroa assaying kits and encouraging members to breed from colonies with the better scores.

 

[Finman]

Amc are never going to be a dominant force in natural mating of honey bees in the British isles so your two statements above are false, what you're actually doing is messing up the gene pool and causing a hybrid situation. Never mind, a generation or two after you've gone things will settle down and maybe some of the genes in your bees will have survived to improve the general mix in the locality, but I doubt it.

Fusion stories are very different that of B+. But let it be.

And 20 colonies as a genepool is far too Low.

 

[oliver90owner]

Eleven pages of mostly carp from a large number of non-thinkers (I use this term, rather than rile some by the use other terms here).

Most beekeepers perpetuate any hereditary problems by buying in queens which are simply factory-farmed for profit. Any potential for the beekeeeper to improve their stock is reset to zero - and Finman is a prime example, as he openly admits that he buys in new queens every year.

Great, maybe, for large crops but does precisely b*gger all for the varroa problem.

Not one on the thread has considered what I think is an obvious possibility. It is just never crossed anyone’s mind to think about. Karol would be able to offer so many alternatives on the varroa issue - far more than I - but I will just put forward the one important issue that has not been even thought of. Likely not even by Ratnik, or whatever his name is.

Let me first offer a possible analogy (which may have some basis for discusion, or may be a complete red herring.

I used to suffer from athletes foot. Alarmingly so and fairly continuously, if not treated - and it soon returned if powders, tea tree oil, etc were discontinued. About ten years ago I was placed on drugs due to an infarction, and later after a quadruple bypass. Since then, I have not suffered from athletes foot - pure coincidence or not? I had, prior to my bypass op, contracted a fungal infection of a toenail (which is fairly benign and I still have it). I have often wondered if was the aspirin, statin or ramipril type pill that has cleared up the athletes foot infection or whether it is the nail fungus that is depressing any potential athletes foot infection. Frankly I don’t care, to be honest, but there may (or may not) be a connection somewhere between either the medications or the other fungal infection.

Another analogy might be the resistance of weeds to glyphosate that is most definitely arising - or at least the prevalence of round-up resistant weeds in crops these days. Bayer/monsanto don’t care about the other effects of their activities - all they care about is profit from their poisons.

Back to beekeeping and varroa. Firstly, and foremost, let’s get this straight: parasites do not aim to kill their host - it is self-defeating! Varroa only killed the honeybee colonies because they had moved from their usual host species, and honeybees had never before met with them. A lethal combination like the Innuits and the common cold virus - yet another analogy here - where they fell over and died because they had no immune system defence response to the virus.

Now, does nobody think that maybe varroa also evolve/change/modify their action, if left alone? Most certainly, after nearly 30 years, they have had more generation iterations to become more ‘sensible’ and stop killing off colonies like they did initially? We already know they become resistant to acaricides and then, quite quickly, lose that resistance (obviously still not understood by a fairly large proportion of non-thinking beekeepers, even umpteen years down the line).

Scientists use fruit flies for experiments such as resistance to chemicals for the very reason that they have short reproduction cycles, so several generations can be observed in a relatively short period of time. Do compare the reproductive cycle periods of varroa, honeybees (and perhaps humans).

B+ may well have bees resistant to varroa - but he may also now have strains of varroa that are not so virulent. Given nature to be a leveller (in the long run) the bees and varroa would have to either live or perish together. Just because the interfering human loses some of his/her expected crop is neither here not there as far as nature is concerned. Bees have survived for millions of years longer (in some form) than humans have been in their development - say from the time the first of our ancestors came down out of the trees.

It may even be the continual human interference with the colony that prompts the varroa to act too aggressively - who knows? Definitely not the beekeepers on this thread, that is for sure! But that is one of the problems with humans - they expect everything to go the way they want. One only needs to look at the brexit farce to see that. False claims and no plan to execute the result of the ill thought out referendum.

I voted to leave - after 40 years of trash dished out by brussels - knowing that there was not umpteen billions extra available for the NHS, expecting monumental problems over the border beteen N and S ireland, problems with Gibralter, problems (yet to come - wait and see) with the Falklands and several other insurmountable or difficult off-shoots from the decision. That politicicians have borne out my belief that they are a load of money grabbing wasters who never give a simple truthful answer to any awkward question makes me smile, while I quietly watch them dig themselves into a deeper hole.

Same with beekeepers who have only tunnel vision. Only think about the money from the crop or the bees in their colonies, not the whole picture. Like the neonicotoid lovers who simply ignore all the non-target species of insect (and likely other invertebrates) that are rapidly disappearing. Vertebrates will follow the same course - as the food chain/net is further disrupted or the nerve agents affects on vertebrates begins to show up.

Enough said to make a few think? Go on, pick the bones out of that lot! Even have a think about it.

 

[B+.]

I learned too and I sold honey when I studied.

I have chemistry degrees and I knew how to use chemicals

Did you learn how to prevent wax from absorbing Apistan and Bayvarrol?

 

[B+.]

Amc are never going to be a dominant force in natural mating of honey bees in the British isles so your two statements above are false, what you're actually doing is messing up the gene pool and causing a hybrid situation. Never mind, a generation or two after you've gone things will settle down and maybe some of the genes in your bees will have survived to improve the general mix in the locality, but I doubt it.

I'm struggling to follow your logic mbc. Genes that give a species a survival advantage usually do survive, but that is in a natural environment. Everything that I see on this forum tells me that human interference has more impact on our bees than anything else (e.g. adding increasing amounts of insulation - how does this add to the vitality of the honeybee?).
You seem to like to portray me as some evil Dr Frankenstein - a loner conducting bizarre experiments for his own twisted ends, but, I am not alone and the selection/propagation that I do is part of a much bigger programme than you can possibly imagine. It is entirely rational and, what is more, it is producing tangible results. These results speak for themselves but, whenever I invite visitors into my apiaries, they always comment how docile and prolific the colonies are. This is what people want.

 

[For want of a better word]

Eleven pages of mostly carp from a large number of non-thinkers (I use this term, rather than rile some by the use other terms here).

Most beekeepers perpetuate any hereditary problems by buying in queens which are simply factory-farmed for profit. Any potential for the beekeeeper to improve their stock is reset to zero - and Finman is a prime example, as he openly admits that he buys in new queens every year.

Great, maybe, for large crops but does precisely b*gger all for the varroa problem.

Not one on the thread has considered what I think is an obvious possibility. It is just never crossed anyone’s mind to think about. Karol would be able to offer so many alternatives on the varroa issue - far more than I - but I will just put forward the one important issue that has not been even thought of. Likely not even by Ratnik, or whatever his name is.

Let me first offer a possible analogy (which may have some basis for discusion, or may be a complete red herring.

I used to suffer from athletes foot. Alarmingly so and fairly continuously, if not treated - and it soon returned if powders, tea tree oil, etc were discontinued. About ten years ago I was placed on drugs due to an infarction, and later after a quadruple bypass. Since then, I have not suffered from athletes foot - pure coincidence or not? I had, prior to my bypass op, contracted a fungal infection of a toenail (which is fairly benign and I still have it). I have often wondered if was the aspirin, statin or ramipril type pill that has cleared up the athletes foot infection or whether it is the nail fungus that is depressing any potential athletes foot infection. Frankly I don’t care, to be honest, but there may (or may not) be a connection somewhere between either the medications or the other fungal infection.

Another analogy might be the resistance of weeds to glyphosate that is most definitely arising - or at least the prevalence of round-up resistant weeds in crops these days. Bayer/monsanto don’t care about the other effects of their activities - all they care about is profit from their poisons.

Back to beekeeping and varroa. Firstly, and foremost, let’s get this straight: parasites do not aim to kill their host - it is self-defeating! Varroa only killed the honeybee colonies because they had moved from their usual host species, and honeybees had never before met with them. A lethal combination like the Innuits and the common cold virus - yet another analogy here - where they fell over and died because they had no immune system defence response to the virus.

Now, does nobody think that maybe varroa also evolve/change/modify their action, if left alone? Most certainly, after nearly 30 years, they have had more generation iterations to become more ‘sensible’ and stop killing off colonies like they did initially? We already know they become resistant to acaricides and then, quite quickly, lose that resistance (obviously still not understood by a fairly large proportion of non-thinking beekeepers, even umpteen years down the line).

Scientists use fruit flies for experiments such as resistance to chemicals for the very reason that they have short reproduction cycles, so several generations can be observed in a relatively short period of time. Do compare the reproductive cycle periods of varroa, honeybees (and perhaps humans).

B+ may well have bees resistant to varroa - but he may also now have strains of varroa that are not so virulent. Given nature to be a leveller (in the long run) the bees and varroa would have to either live or perish together. Just because the interfering human loses some of his/her expected crop is neither here not there as far as nature is concerned. Bees have survived for millions of years longer (in some form) than humans have been in their development - say from the time the first of our ancestors came down out of the trees.

It may even be the continual human interference with the colony that prompts the varroa to act too aggressively - who knows? Definitely not the beekeepers on this thread, that is for sure! But that is one of the problems with humans - they expect everything to go the way they want. One only needs to look at the brexit farce to see that. False claims and no plan to execute the result of the ill thought out referendum.

I voted to leave - after 40 years of trash dished out by brussels - knowing that there was not umpteen billions extra available for the NHS, expecting monumental problems over the border beteen N and S ireland, problems with Gibralter, problems (yet to come - wait and see) with the Falklands and several other insurmountable or difficult off-shoots from the decision. That politicicians have borne out my belief that they are a load of money grabbing wasters who never give a simple truthful answer to any awkward question makes me smile, while I quietly watch them dig themselves into a deeper hole.

Same with beekeepers who have only tunnel vision. Only think about the money from the crop or the bees in their colonies, not the whole picture. Like the neonicotoid lovers who simply ignore all the non-target species of insect (and likely other invertebrates) that are rapidly disappearing. Vertebrates will follow the same course - as the food chain/net is further disrupted or the nerve agents affects on vertebrates begins to show up.

Enough said to make a few think? Go on, pick the bones out of that lot! Even have a think about it.

I do not actually believe that there is such a thing as a Varroa resistant bee... well not in the Melliffera mellifera host it has been transferred to.
Varroa is a parasite... it is not a bacteria or a virus, although it is probably the vector by which the aforementioned are transferred.

We will have to continue burning their feet off... even if Vet Meds want to let big pest co screw us all over for expensive "approved" ( adulterated) OA


I have yet to meet a pubic louse resistant human being... ( I studied parasiteology when being trained at great expense by the NHS in the 60s)

I do believe that there are sheep that seem to live with their roundworm infection after time without treatment... without it becoming a nuisance infestation.... if no new sheep are brought into the flock..... but the parasite is still there in the sheep's guts!

I am in some agreement with MBC and Tracter man...... will be interesting to see what science will bring to beekeeping in the future.
However some of these small scale amateur citizen science experiments may lead to something... who knows?

 

[Finman]

Did you learn how to prevent wax from absorbing Apistan and Bayvarrol?

Did you?

 

[Finman]

Did you learn how to prevent wax from absorbing Apistan and Bayvarrol?

Very stupid question really.

When varroa arrived on the Late of 1970 th to Finland, there was no cure against varroa during next 10 years.

Then 1988 Finland started to import Peritzin from Germany. And some years later Apistan.

Well, B+, should I invent some of these chemicals for beekeeping world? And why me.

Stupid questions

.

 

[Beefriendly]

. Firstly, and foremost, let’s get this straight: parasites do not aim to kill their host - it is self-defeating!

Quite correct...but we already know Apis cerano and varroa do not kill each other. The mutual host/parasite relationship there has evolved over many 1000's of years
The problem is when varroa recently jumped host to from cerano to mellifera.
New ball game and only 50/60 years or so down the evolutionary ladder.

 

[B+.]

Did you?

No. My wife is the (medicinal) chemist in my family. That is why I stopped using chemicals. Unless they are neutralised/transformed into something else, they inevitably have an effect that we don't intend

 

[B+.]

Well, B+, should I invent some of these chemicals for beekeeping world? And why me.

Stupid questions

Do you understand rhetorical questions? One which is posed, not to be answered but to highlight the inadequacy of the opponents point of view.

 

[foghornleghorn]

Eleven pages of mostly carp from a large number of non-thinkers (I use this term, rather than rile some by the use other terms here).

Most beekeepers perpetuate any hereditary problems by buying in queens which are simply factory-farmed for profit. Any potential for the beekeeeper to improve their stock is reset to zero - and Finman is a prime example, as he openly admits that he buys in new queens every year.

Great, maybe, for large crops but does precisely b*gger all for the varroa problem.

Not one on the thread has considered what I think is an obvious possibility. It is just never crossed anyone’s mind to think about. Karol would be able to offer so many alternatives on the varroa issue - far more than I - but I will just put forward the one important issue that has not been even thought of. Likely not even by Ratnik, or whatever his name is.

Let me first offer a possible analogy (which may have some basis for discusion, or may be a complete red herring.

I used to suffer from athletes foot. Alarmingly so and fairly continuously, if not treated - and it soon returned if powders, tea tree oil, etc were discontinued. About ten years ago I was placed on drugs due to an infarction, and later after a quadruple bypass. Since then, I have not suffered from athletes foot - pure coincidence or not? I had, prior to my bypass op, contracted a fungal infection of a toenail (which is fairly benign and I still have it). I have often wondered if was the aspirin, statin or ramipril type pill that has cleared up the athletes foot infection or whether it is the nail fungus that is depressing any potential athletes foot infection. Frankly I don’t care, to be honest, but there may (or may not) be a connection somewhere between either the medications or the other fungal infection.

Another analogy might be the resistance of weeds to glyphosate that is most definitely arising - or at least the prevalence of round-up resistant weeds in crops these days. Bayer/monsanto don’t care about the other effects of their activities - all they care about is profit from their poisons.

Back to beekeeping and varroa. Firstly, and foremost, let’s get this straight: parasites do not aim to kill their host - it is self-defeating! Varroa only killed the honeybee colonies because they had moved from their usual host species, and honeybees had never before met with them. A lethal combination like the Innuits and the common cold virus - yet another analogy here - where they fell over and died because they had no immune system defence response to the virus.

Now, does nobody think that maybe varroa also evolve/change/modify their action, if left alone? Most certainly, after nearly 30 years, they have had more generation iterations to become more ‘sensible’ and stop killing off colonies like they did initially? We already know they become resistant to acaricides and then, quite quickly, lose that resistance (obviously still not understood by a fairly large proportion of non-thinking beekeepers, even umpteen years down the line).

Scientists use fruit flies for experiments such as resistance to chemicals for the very reason that they have short reproduction cycles, so several generations can be observed in a relatively short period of time. Do compare the reproductive cycle periods of varroa, honeybees (and perhaps humans).

B+ may well have bees resistant to varroa - but he may also now have strains of varroa that are not so virulent. Given nature to be a leveller (in the long run) the bees and varroa would have to either live or perish together. Just because the interfering human loses some of his/her expected crop is neither here not there as far as nature is concerned. Bees have survived for millions of years longer (in some form) than humans have been in their development - say from the time the first of our ancestors came down out of the trees.

It may even be the continual human interference with the colony that prompts the varroa to act too aggressively - who knows? Definitely not the beekeepers on this thread, that is for sure! But that is one of the problems with humans - they expect everything to go the way they want. One only needs to look at the brexit farce to see that. False claims and no plan to execute the result of the ill thought out referendum.

I voted to leave - after 40 years of trash dished out by brussels - knowing that there was not umpteen billions extra available for the NHS, expecting monumental problems over the border beteen N and S ireland, problems with Gibralter, problems (yet to come - wait and see) with the Falklands and several other insurmountable or difficult off-shoots from the decision. That politicicians have borne out my belief that they are a load of money grabbing wasters who never give a simple truthful answer to any awkward question makes me smile, while I quietly watch them dig themselves into a deeper hole.

Same with beekeepers who have only tunnel vision. Only think about the money from the crop or the bees in their colonies, not the whole picture. Like the neonicotoid lovers who simply ignore all the non-target species of insect (and likely other invertebrates) that are rapidly disappearing. Vertebrates will follow the same course - as the food chain/net is further disrupted or the nerve agents affects on vertebrates begins to show up.

Enough said to make a few think? Go on, pick the bones out of that lot! Even have a think about it.

For less virulent strains of varroa to get a footing there would surely have to be some degree of isolation and low bee population to make it much harder for movement between colonies, otherwise there's no selection pressure for less virulent strains to appear.
If you were to depopulate the country of bees enough to breed less virulent varroa and then repopulate, you would just select for more virulent strains once more

 

[Finman]

Do you understand rhetorical questions? One which is posed, not to be answered but to highlight the inadequacy of the opponents point of view.

I do not understand your childish questions, why you dl them? They have nothing to do with your rhetoric or opponents view.

Not to be answered?

Great Britain people from overseas cannot give back if Great British give they rhetoric insults.

 

[Walrus]

Back to beekeeping and varroa. Firstly, and foremost, let’s get this straight: parasites do not aim to kill their host - it is self-defeating!

I spoke to Randy Oliver about this in October. He has spent a lot of time thinking about the Varroa problem, and he now thinks that Varroa behaves more like a parasitoid than a parasite. You are right that there is no benefit to a parasite killing its host and that over time either both will die out or they will find a way to co-exist, which would involve adaptations by both host and parasite.

However, Randy now says that he believes evolutionary pressure is pushing the Varroa/DWV combo, which he calls "the monster", in the direction of killing the host. The reason is that beekeepers provide an endless supply of other hives for them to move to, which they do via drifting/robbing. His experiments show workers from Varroa infested colonies turning up in hives a mile away. The Varroa/DWV combo is able to spread to many other hives by causing the host colony to collapse. If they did not cause the colony to collapse they would not be able to spread so far so quickly. If there wasn't a constant supply of new hives put there by beekeepers to replace losses it would be a bad strategy.

Presumably if one day our honey bees possessed a trait which somehow enabled them to keep mite numbers down to safe levels, like with Apis cerana, then the collapse and subsequent drifting would go away. Randy says that the only way this would happen is if the big queen producers get onboard, but they will only provide what their customers demand and are prepared to pay for.

 

[Finman]

.
Guys. There are lots of parasites which kill their hosts or make them weak.
.

 

[madasafish]

.
Guys. There are lots of parasites which kill their hosts.

Exactly.. Large tapeworms for one..And malaria and syphilis ...

Our Apiary imported queens from Colonsay where varroa are non existent. The hives they headed here had HUGE varroa drops - much higher than local ones: thus suggesting local bees - which of course are exposed to varroa - have developed some resistance.

I won't rant about Brexit - one rant is enough and I refuse to read ranters.