Nicot system problems

[Sali]

Cuting a long story short, I put the eggs in the queen rearing frame, 12 eggs in total, when i went back into the hopelessly queenless hive they had not reared any queen cells and had removed all the eggs. Any ideas on what could of happened?

 

[Swn58]

Cuting a long story short, I put the eggs in the queen rearing frame, 12 eggs in total, when i went back into the hopelessly queenless hive they had not reared any queen cells and had removed all the eggs. Any ideas on what could of happened?

I had this happen twice this year. The first time was definitely my fault, caused by a delay in an undiscovered queen starting to lay eggs. The QC's that I put in the hive were subsequently taken down. On round two, things seemed to be going well, up until around day fourteen. On a final check, before I was about to 'cage' the cells, I discovered that they had all been destroyed by the workers. Then, yet again a few weeks later, perfect sealed brood appeared. I doubt that one queen of the batch could have emerged many days quicker than the others and killed them! I am yet to see this queen though.
Before anyone asks, I shook brood frames clear of bees, re-added a queen excluder, gave the bees an hour to repopulate the frames above the excluder, before moving them to a new, 'queenless' home. I had checked and double checked before electing to use this hive as my QC doner! As time was pressing, I had to give up using the system for this year.

 

[madasafish]

The Nicot system works best if you wait for eggs to mature to very small larvae - 4-12 hours old- before transfer to a starter colony.
If you move eggs into a Q- starter , the bees may just dislike the smell of them and remove them.

I always transferred larvae. (Been there, did the above)

Of course if your Q- starter hive is not Q-, you are not going to raise any Queen cells (been there done that as well ).

Experience suggest most failures are due to starter hives not being Q- - especially if they have raised Qs before and you let them mature without cages. and risk a virgin emerging and vanishing and screwing things up for the next batch. I always caged capped QCs for this very reason.

 

[Swn58]

The Nicot system works best if you wait for eggs to mature to very small larvae - 4-12 hours old- before transfer to a starter colony.
If you move eggs into a Q- starter , the bees may just dislike the smell of them and remove them.

I always transferred larvae. (Been there, did the above)

Of course if your Q- starter hive is not Q-, you are not going to raise any Queen cells (been there done that as well ).

Experience suggest most failures are due to starter hives not being Q- - especially if they have raised Qs before and you let them mature without cages. and risk a virgin emerging and vanishing and screwing things up for the next batch. I always caged capped QCs for this very reason.

Yes....I fully understand. I admit to being new to this system. I have taken onboard the delay, until the eggs become very small larvae. Good plan. I will be sure to do that next year, to guarantee less chance of the workers taking them out, before they actually get started! I always transferred '?' larvae before after all!
I can see what happened with Round 1; a QC that I had placed, then thought had not hatched, obviously had. Then followed a very long delay in her mating and laying any eggs. It must have been 4 weeks plus, in fact.
As for Round 2, goodness knows what happened. I had six capped QC's and was about to cage them, expecting them to hatch within three to four days days. They were the subject of meticulous diary notes, so my timing would not be out at all! I arrived to cage them and every one had been broken open by the workers. This was a day after I had checked them and they were alright.
A few weeks later there was new perfect brood patterns on some of the frames, where it had been 'ragged' before, due to the old hatching brood and NO queen. Again, I have still not found a new queen! That's them thar bees for yer!

 

[jool]

I have tried short cutting the Nicot system myself by transferring eggs. They always eat them much better to wait until day 4 with day old larvea. Also larvea in jelly easier to see from the back. I have also had the undiscovered queen failure!
I'm convinced of some bee secret society that likes to throw a queen in the front door of your queen rearing hive.

 

[Swn58]

I have tried short cutting the Nicot system myself by transferring eggs. They always eat them much better to wait until day 4 with day old larvea. Also larvea in jelly easier to see from the back. I have also had the undiscovered queen failure!
I'm convinced of some bee secret society that likes to throw a queen in the front door of your queen rearing hive.

YES......that must be it.....or pesky space aliens!!!

 

[rook66]

I have tried short cutting the Nicot system myself by transferring eggs. They always eat them much better to wait until day 4 with day old larvea. Also larvea in jelly easier to see from the back. I have also had the undiscovered queen failure!
I'm convinced of some bee secret society that likes to throw a queen in the front door of your queen rearing hive.

"Queen breeding and genetics" (Eigil Holm) is a very good guide and most of the problems are covered there. The cell raiser should have a young queen caged or isolated above or below for nine days while open brood is being sealed, A queen excluder should be on the entrance to keep out virgin queens evicted from other hives or casts. You will know if you have enough bees in the set up if they are clustered outside. My penny's worth

 

[madasafish]

Yes....I fully understand. I admit to being new to this system. I have taken onboard the delay, until the eggs become very small larvae. Good plan. I will be sure to do that next year, to guarantee less chance of the workers taking them out, before they actually get started! I always transferred '?' larvae before after all!
I can see what happened with Round 1; a QC that I had placed, then thought had not hatched, obviously had. Then followed a very long delay in her mating and laying any eggs. It must have been 4 weeks plus, in fact.
As for Round 2, goodness knows what happened. I had six capped QC's and was about to cage them, expecting them to hatch within three to four days days. They were the subject of meticulous diary notes, so my timing would not be out at all! I arrived to cage them and every one had been broken open by the workers. This was a day after I had checked them and they were alright.
A few weeks later there was new perfect brood patterns on some of the frames, where it had been 'ragged' before, due to the old hatching brood and NO queen. Again, I have still not found a new queen! That's them thar bees for yer!

It's existing queens that tend to kill Qs in QCs I believe.
Somewhere you will have a (possibly small, dark and difficult to find) queen...

Been there as well !

 

[Paras]

Hello Everyone,

I plan on using the Nicot system, how many days do you need to make a hive queenless to introduce the newly hatched larvae for a successful queen rearing. I would like to get the timing right. Appreciate your great advice on the matter.

 

[Apple]

Hello Everyone,

I plan on using the Nicot system, how many days do you need to make a hive queenless to introduce the newly hatched larvae for a successful queen rearing. I would like to get the timing right. Appreciate your great advice on the matter.

A matter of hours if removing the queen to a holding nuc.... needs to be a really I mean REALLY strong colony.. and feed them.

Watch out for laying workers... and Good Luck!

Yeghes da

 

[Paras]

A matter of hours if removing the queen to a holding nuc.... needs to be a really I mean REALLY strong colony.. and feed them.

Watch out for laying workers... and Good Luck!

Yeghes da

Thank you certainly put the larvae in a very strong Queenless colony.

I was thinking of making the colony queenless at the same time when I put the queen into the Nicot system, remove the queen after 12-24hrs and leave the Nicot system in the colony for another 2/3 days and move it into the queenless colony. Would check all the frames in the queenless colony to see there is no queen cells.

Let me know if this is a good plan or I need to make few amendments to my plan.

 

[madasafish]

Thank you certainly put the larvae in a very strong Queenless colony.

I was thinking of making the colony queenless at the same time when I put the queen into the Nicot system, remove the queen after 12-24hrs and leave the Nicot system in the colony for another 2/3 days and move it into the queenless colony. Would check all the frames in the queenless colony to see there is no queen cells.

Let me know if this is a good plan or I need to make few amendments to my plan.

You are recommended to put the cage - without Q into the colony for 24 hours to enable the bees to clean it. I sprayed sugar solution on the cups as well to encourage cleaning.
Then insert Q.


Before you remove the Q from the Nicot cage, you MUST check for eggs. If none leave Q in for another 24 hours.
Once you see eggs, you should know how old they are: eg if none yesterday at (say) 5pm and some today at say 5pm on average the eggs will be 12 hours old. (24hours divided by 2)
Within 3 days from laying the eggs will be larvae. SO another 72-12 = 60 hours.
THIS is VERY Important.

If you then place cage with eggs in another hive, the workers will almost certainly eat the eggs. (Different scent)

Best queens are raised with young larvae - the younger the better.. So if you want 12 hour old (or LESS) larvae, you are looking at laying time +72 hours to become larvae plus less than 12 hours.

So you need to calculate from when you think the eggs were laid . And move them then.


Queen rearing requires absolute following of a Queen Rearing Calendar. If you get it wrong badly you will get poor quality queens or none at all...
Been there , done that.

So the start date and TIME of when you insert Q into cage must be carefully chosen so subsequent dates and times are convenient for you.
The Beeyard » Queen Rearing Calendar gives a calendar for grafting - just amend to suit Nicot steps.
Queen Rearing Timetable – BIBBA is another.

I used a simple Excel spreadsheet but pencil and paper is fine.

I must reiterate: Correct Timing is ESSENTIAL

( removing a Q at night? Moving a frame at 3am? Not me)

Edit

I used Nicot for three years but decided grafting was far more flexible and with fewer interventions and much easier control of timetable. So taught myself grafting but that is another story.

 

[Apple]

I used Nicot for three years but decided grafting was far more flexible and with fewer interventions and much easier control of timetable. So taught myself grafting but that is another story

me too

 

[Paras]

Just thinking outside the box, what if you remove the queen and put her in a nucleus colony and leave the eggs in frame for the bees to make a queen cells. That way the colony will not eat the eggs since it is from their queen.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Just thinking outside the box, what if you remove the queen and put her in a nucleus colony and leave the eggs in frame for the bees to make a queen cells. That way the colony will not eat the eggs since it is from their queen.

A pre-emptive split.
You need to remove the queen cells made on older larvae
Ive had perfectly ok queens made on emergency impulse

 

[Swarm]

Well as you know, I have a Bulgarian friend who uses that method to raise queens. Take it another step and perform a Demarree on the hive and you can transfer combs with fresh eggs and have cells when you want them. You can mark the frames. Supersedure impulse, bloody good queens because the bees do the choosing.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well as you know, I have a Bulgarian friend who uses that method to raise queens. Take it another step and perform a Demarree on the hive and you can transfer combs with fresh eggs and have cells when you want them. You can mark the frames. Supersedure impulse, bloody good queens because the bees do the choosing.

Yes I like a Demaree
Usually do a couple.

 

[Paras]

Well as you know, I have a Bulgarian friend who uses that method to raise queens. Take it another step and perform a Demarree on the hive and you can transfer combs with fresh eggs and have cells when you want them. You can mark the frames. Supersedure impulse, bloody good queens because the bees do the choosing.

Would the hive create queen cells, because the hive is still queen right

 

[Erichalfbee]

Would the hive create queen cells, because the hive is still queen right

Yes because you a splitting the brood from the queen. They are drawn more under the supersedure impulse than the emergency. The queen is separated by two supers from the top box.

 

[Paras]

Yes because you a splitting the brood from the queen. They are drawn more under the supersedure impulse than the emergency. The queen is separated by two supers from the top box.

Would that work using a split board / Snelgrove board