Newbees and slightly worried

[Geohorn]

We treated for Varoa a few months ago and had the inspection board in place. That remained there until the treatment was complete and then it was removed and inspected. There were a few reddish looking mites but not a lot like I had imagined.
The hive is set on a Whe BC stand onto a paving slab at the end of the front garden with hedges both side and behind, there are trees above but cant be avoided. It is in a relatively sheltered position.

 

[drstitson]

"There were a few reddish looking mites"

mature mites are medium chestnut brown. you sure you've got your eye in?

 

[Outlander]

Not saying nothing this time. Hi and good luck.

 

[oliver90owner]

full brood box AND super (or 14x12) then should be ok til spring

I think a full brood box AND 14 x 12 is a tad excessive DrS?

 

[BeeJayBee]

We have the brood at the bottom with an alluminium excluder then a super and then the queen board on top of that.

Just to be sure everybody's talking about the same components it might be worth checking the diagram on this page http://barnsleybeekeepers.org.uk/hive.html

There's another forum thread you might also find useful. http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=21347

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Not saying nothing this time.

Tch - grammar!

 

[farbee]

I learnt all this stuff after the course

And you will never stop

Just as well I like learning.

 

[drex]

I am concerned about the number of posts I am reading about feeding fondant "just in case".

Ok for newcomers I can understand, as the last thing they want is for bees to starve over winter.

However feeding has to be a balanced thing. Better to feed them sugar as much as possible for them to store, so if done correctly there will be no need for fondant supplements ( one hopes the weather will be typical cold English winter). As much as possible - but not so as to block any laying space needed by the queen for those valuable "winter bees".

The wisdom on here seems to say that fondant is never stored - I wonder on what that is based.

Come spring, with the correct manipulation, I hope to ensure that any overwinter stores are used so as not to contaminate honey.

If a spring balance ( or other device is used) it is possible to easily assess stores as they go into and through winter and with sensible use of maths, the need for experience in this is small.

 

[beeno]

Hi drex,
Many people, myself included, have had bees putting a lot of syrup into brood this year. Therefore, we are rightly concerned because we feel the store levels are not quite there and we do not know what the weather has in store. I have taken the advice of some guru on this forum which stated that fondant is stored. Thus I shall not feed to stimulate spring brood rearing in order not to contaminate the honey and to try to avoid early swarming.

 

[itma]

Hi drex,
Many people, myself included, have had bees putting a lot of syrup into brood this year. Therefore, we are rightly concerned because we feel the store levels are not quite there and we do not know what the weather has in store. I have taken the advice of some guru on this forum which stated that fondant is stored. Thus I shall not feed to stimulate spring brood rearing in order not to contaminate the honey and to try to avoid early swarming.

Ummm.
If stores are "not quite" there, that sounds as though there is plenty to get them well into the new year. At which point, if the hives were 'light' they could be given fondant. And using a cheap luggage scale makes it very easy to track the hives weight change. And if they aren't needing it in the new year, you shouldn't give it to them just because you have some in the cupboard.
The big idea is to come into spring with the minimum amount of residual stores. Overfeeding in autumn is what causes excess to be still stored in spring, reducing the space in the brood box for the spring brood explosion, and the lack of adequate availability of brood space is one thing that creates swarming pressure.

Fondant being stored? Maybe if fed earlier, but I really wouldn't expect it to be being stored when its below 10C outside, like today.

Spring feeding? The idea is to provide water, as much as anything else, to get brood-rearing going. It is *not* supposed to be about storing it - spring feed ought never to get anywhere near crop supers. Perhaps you may have wondered why thin syrup is given in spring.

 

[dpearce4]

itma how thin you talking? 1:1 or 0.5:1?

Im thinking about preperations for spring buildup now (obviously not actually putting anything on the hives until beginning of feb), so will be looking at some sort of pollen patty with syrup, mind you we have a dew pond within 100m of the bees and in spring the track between the bees and the pond is like the M25 in rush hour, you cant see the bees (going so fast) you only hear them or feel them when they crash into you if you get in their way.

 

[itma]

1:1 is conventional, but some (inc o90o) advocate thinner.

 

[oliver90owner]

The wisdom on here seems to say that fondant is never stored - I wonder on what that is based.

The wisdom on here would never say never.

Based on simple facts. Fondant is around 11% water, honey is around 18%.

If the bees can easily source water and then cap the cells they will certainly store it. Otherwise they will consume it.

It can be safely fed later than syrup because there will be zilch evaporation required in the hive with fondant compared with sugar syrup (1/3rd water).

Fondant as autumn feed is just a convenient but perhaps more expensive alternative to syrup, but syrup needs more labour input and is rather more subject to the weather (unused fondant if left on will not cause problems to the busy beekeeper in the autumn, whereas syrup may well remain uncapped, excess and feeders need removing etc), so the balance is not purely cost of materials.

Fondant in winter is an emergency feed, just as syrup would be if the bees were starving in the summer. Syrup is far better for the bees in summer because they do not need to collect water for brood-food production (thus the use of 1:1). That can save the open brood from starvation almost immediately.

Nobody should be feeding an emergency feed yet, unless there has been a problem elsewhere in the winter preparations.

Hope that explains most of it.

RAB

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

As is so often the case, RAB, your post is succinct, apposite and thought-provoking.

However, it still leaves us Newbees with the problem of how to assess when a hive is light on supplies. Both hefting and weighing rely on knowing the base weight - which depends so much on individual configuration and what's going on inside.

We won't really know till we've got this winter over.

Lots to learn!

Dusty

 

[drex]

as has been said on a recent post- if you have the kit make up an identical hive configuration including frames with drawn comb then weigh it - Add on about 3lbs for bees then you have the base weight.

Simple really. Or weigh the hives before you start feeding next year.

Otherwise weigh regularly through winter and check the rate of fall. Anything unusual then may have to investigate further

 

[bee ginnner]

surely if there is a block of fondant on QE or direct on brood frames, and the bee's move up into the super beeing used as an eke then they would be isolated from there food and starve. so the queen being left behind woudn't make any difference ??

 

[REDWOOD]

surely if there is a block of fondant on QE or direct on brood frames, and the bee's move up into the super beeing used as an eke then they would be isolated from there food and starve. so the queen being left behind woudn't make any difference ??

So how do you think it should be done ?

 

[bee ginnner]

So how do you think it should be done ?

i dont know thats why i am asking, as it seems to me that if the bee's move up like others suggest then they will die.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Take these scenarios
scenario 1 brood box with stores - bees will move en masse around the frames in the brood following the food - they will stay in their cozy little cluster with queen safely tucked nice and warm in the middle - bees will feed her.
scenario 2- brood box then super with stores -bees will move en masse around the frames in the brood following the food, bees will move up onto the frames in the super when food supply in the brood runs out - they will stay in their cozy little cluster with queen safely tucked nice and warm in the middle - bees will feed her.
scenario 3 - brood box, crown board with hole in, lump of fondant over hole - super as an eke over fondant -bees will move en masse around the frames in the brood following the food, when food runs out cluster will move until directly under hole and some bees will pop up, get fondant and tuck back into cluster - queen safely tucked up etc etc
scenario 4 - brood box, queen excluder then super with stores -bees will move en masse around the frames in the brood following the food with queen safely tucked, etc.etc, until stores run out in brood then
either bees will move up onto the frames in the super queen left behind under QX not safely tucked up etc etc therefore queen is dead
OR
Bees being bees refuse to abandon the queen to her fate thus all stay beneath the QX within sight but not reach of plentiful stores thus whole colony dies - ISOLATION STARVATION.
I know someone who this has happened to - not a beginner but an experienced beek (I won't embarrass the SBI in question by saying any more

 

[Dishmop]

Allowing for the fact that what I see in my obs hive may not apply to ordinary hives, in the winter my bees dont move up to the stores en mass... they stay downstairs, only going up to feed and come back down again.