New warre beekeeper and harvesting question

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I know lots of Warre users. Have never heard this before. What do you base this on?

The only hives I know of which are more susceptible to pesticides are those with mesh floors; in parts of America, the local council sends lorries round spraying the streets with insecticides to kill mosquitoes. Hive users there report the clouds of spray can kill hives in their BACK yards - not next to the road - but comment that Langstroths with solid floors survive.

So, what is your evidence, anecdotal or otherwise? You make strong claims, you must have some.
My comment has nothing to do with warre hives, rather, varroa-less beekeepers trying to fathom why their bees have crashed....

I know a bit about warre hives, they're just like any other wooden box
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My comment has nothing to do with warre hives, rather, varroa-less beekeepers trying to fathom why their bees have crashed....

No - you said:
"those are the hives which often die from farmers and gardeners misusing pesticides"

Please justify that comment

I know a bit about warre hives, they're just like any other wooden box
View attachment 41243
 
No - you said:
"those are the hives which often die from farmers and gardeners misusing pesticides"

Please justify that comment
I don't actually have to 'justify' anything, I've explained my use of wording and that's it, your attempt to escalate this into something else won't work with me.
 
OK ... stop now ... as I said this is in the beginners section we are not going to get into a debate about the wisdom of either the OP using Warre Hives (and there are lots of Warre beekeepers successfully using this format) or being treatment free (There are a growing number of TF beekeepers and they do not all - including me ! - lose all their colonies every winter).

The OP came here looking for advice about clearing boxes in order to extract their honey... and got some very good advice. Hopefully she will be back to tell us how she got on...
 
No - you said:
"those are the hives which often die from farmers and gardeners misusing pesticides"

Please justify that comment
It means that SOME beekeepers who do not treat MAY blame hive losses on pesticides.
 
If you're worried re space for the bees you could put the already cleared and emptied box under the clearer board to give space to move into.
Re varroa, if you know anyone with an oa sublimator you could ask them to vape one "varroa free" hive as an experiment - the resultant drop could either reassure or horrify.
 
OK ... stop now ... as I said this is in the beginners section we are not going to get into a debate about the wisdom of either the OP using Warre Hives (and there are lots of Warre beekeepers successfully using this format) or being treatment free (There are a growing number of TF beekeepers and they do not all - including me ! - lose all their colonies every winter).

The OP came here looking for advice about clearing boxes in order to extract their honey... and got some very good advice. Hopefully she will be back to tell us how she got on...
Since starting my beekeeping journey I've never yet encountered a warre hive or knowingly met a Warre user. Come to think of it I haven't seen a Sun Hive either. 🤔
 
(There are a growing number of TF beekeepers and they do not all - including me ! - lose all their colonies every winter).

The OP came here looking for advice about clearing boxes in order to extract their honey... and got some very good advice. Hopefully she will be back to tell us how she got on...
It doesn’t hurt a beginner to understand the difference between the way you keep your bees TF and the way some other beekeepers do. Unmonitored collapsing colonies cause quite a problem to neighbouring beekeepers.
I am treating my bees. Drops have been minimal on all hives bar one which is dropping hundreds. Is it robbing a mite bomb?
 
It doesn’t hurt a beginner to understand the difference between the way you keep your bees TF and the way some other beekeepers do. Unmonitored collapsing colonies cause quite a problem to neighbouring beekeepers.
I am treating my bees. Drops have been minimal on all hives bar one which is dropping hundreds. Is it robbing a mite bomb?
I have no issue with a poster being challenged when they post a comment that is controversial or outside of mainstream - but not ridiculed or laughed at.

You all know my TF regime and that includes proper testing - if you don't actually know what the level of mites in your colonies are then you can't realistically say that your TF regime is working and successful.

I've heard the 'collapsing mite bomb' theory many times .. I think it's not proven - some colonies appear to be mite magnets, whether that is because they are robbing a colony where there are high levels of mites or whether they are just incapable of managing the varroa infestation - we don't know. If your one, super infested, colony has been treated in exactly the same way as your other colonies then it could be that they are just one of those colonies that are prone to attracting varroa or are not as good as your other colonies at managing them.

I deplore people who allow colonies to die out as a result of varroa - but I see people who religiously treat for varroa (in the blind assumption that it works) losing colonies - with symptoms of varroa overload - it does not always follow that treating is a panacea.

There is much we don't know about the ability of some colonies to manage varroa unaided or why some treated colonies appear to succumb, or why some colonies are more prone to infestation than others.

We used to have two yellow labrador dogs who we walked together, at the same time, in the same fields - one would come home covered in ticks - the other - we never saw a tick on him ! I can't explain why that was any more than I could explain how my business partner, during our trips to Africa, would come down to breakfast having been eaten alive by mosquitos whilst I was never bitten.
 
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Since starting my beekeeping journey I've never yet encountered a warre hive or knowingly met a Warre user. Come to think of it I haven't seen a Sun Hive either. 🤔
They are there .. Heidi Herman has both Sun Hives and Warres .. I know several beekeepers using the Warre type of hive/principles and whilst it is not mainstream they are out there. The Sun Hive - well that's pretty esoteric and I have to be honest - apart from Heidi I don't know anyone who has one.

At the end of the day they are just boxes in which bees are kept - and there have been many variations on the theme over the years. The catenary hive developed by Bill BIelby in the 1970's found favour with a number of beekeepers for a while as did the Dartington hive, More recently Bill Summers Zest Hive has found some converts .. there are even variations on the national format - the Rose hive for instance (a one size box hive) I know a few people who, whilst they do not all use the Rose boxes, operate with just standard national brood boxes and I know someone whose hives are all national super boxes =.

These non-mainstream hives are often as effective as more conventional boxes and whilst they are often ridiculed, the bees don't seem to mind them and thrive. They are often developed to address some aspect of the natural behaviour of the bees or to provide some additional convenience to the beekeeper. As often happens, for every benefit provided there is a payback with a disadvantage. My own long deep hive is a fabulous bee factory and it's easy to manage but ... when there are bees in it then a fork lift is needed to move it and without supers and super frames the 14 x 12 format for extracting honey is difficult/problematical.

Has the 'perfect' hive yet been made ... I doubt it - and if it were developed and came to market it would be scoffed at by most beekeepers ! We are not a very open minded lot sometimes.
 
OK ... stop now ... as I said this is in the beginners section we are not going to get into a debate about the wisdom of either the OP using Warre Hives (and there are lots of Warre beekeepers successfully using this format) or being treatment free (There are a growing number of TF beekeepers and they do not all - including me ! - lose all their colonies every winter).

The OP came here looking for advice about clearing boxes in order to extract their honey... and got some very good advice. Hopefully she will be back to tell us how she got on,

Just harvested my honey using clearer board - all went well.
 
Just harvested my honey using clearer board - all went well, thanks for the advice.
 
Just harvested my honey using clearer board - all went well, thanks for the advice.
That's good news, I'm glad that's worked out well for you, the warre is a nice hive to use, it's true that I haven't been over keen on the pure warre methodology (although I reckon he'd have been open minded enough to turn a blind eye to improvisation so long as the peasants were making honey. He was certainly happy to top super section racks) but I do love the box itself and the way the bees behave in it.

As for my earlier sarcasm, I'm happy to apologise for that, I'm only too aware that it's one of my less endearing traits, but in return I'd love it if you, as a beekeeper with a few years experience, would reassess the varroa status of the colony. I have no issue with treatment free, I've been there (with the very unforgiving 'Bond' approach) on a much larger scale than most of the forum TF experts have but a series of other issues brought that experiment (and that entire business) to a close. I'm now more than happy to kill varroa before they kill my bees but still take a keen interest in the TF situation (if you can get to this year's National Honey Show at the tail end of October there should be an interesting lecture or two relating to the subject).

But, I think it's necessary to know the enemy and you simply can't do that if you don't realise that they're already living amongst your bees which, in Bath, they are without question. In my mind TF requires a clear minded decision to let your bees try to live with the mites. Not being aware of the mites presence and hence not treating is only being treatment free in a purely technical sense without any of the potential learning experience; if you're certain that there are no mites and the colony dies out varroa will be the last possible cause you ever consider.

'Keep Going' has been my own personal mantra for many years now, even if it means changing the way I see/approach things.
 
I've heard the 'collapsing mite bomb' theory many times .. I think it's not proven - some colonies appear to be mite magnets, whether that is because they are robbing a colony where there are high levels of mites or whether they are just incapable of managing the varroa infestation - we don't know. If your one, super infested, colony has been treated in exactly the same way as your other colonies then it could be that they are just one of those colonies that are prone to attracting varroa or are not as good as your other colonies at managing them.
Who knows...but I have closely related colonies which are perfectly OK

It shows that if you are monitoring you should monitor all of them, not just a sample
 
After a few years of using Nationals I got a couple of Warrè and Kenyan TBH.. using those and experimenting with Warre methods taught me a lot more about bees than if I had stuck with frames. After a few years I converted the KTBH to take National frames and sold the Warres.
 
Who knows...but I have closely related colonies which are perfectly OK

It shows that if you are monitoring you should monitor all of them, not just a sample
It's a conundrum isn't it ?

Varroa in it's native habitat of Asia lives in a non-destructive relationship with it's host - Apis Cerana - there it is found almost entirely in drone cells and with restricted virility as a result of temperature and humidity. These bees show highly hygienic traits and grooming behaviours that have been established over millenia and the host and parasite, generally, live in a balanced state. There is some evidence that where varroa has spread to the Cape bees and the africanised bees in the USA (and even AM in Cuba) these bees have developed some resistance to varroa in a condensed time frame.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-022-00977-8

Bees are clever and adaptable creatures - they learn behaviour quickly and appear to inherit desirable traits (it's why we all seek to improve the stock we keep by selective breeding and rear from queens that show desirable characteristics in their offspring). Varroa has been in the UK since the 1990's there is every reason to believe that at least some of our bees are developing coping mechanisms.

I'm not suggesting that we should all stop treating - but, if colonies ARE (with proper testing) showing low varroa levels on an ongoing basis then there is a good case for allowing these colonies to exist without treatment - perhaps, just perhaps, these are the future of beekeeping in the UK. 30 years of treatment does not seem to have led to a solution.

I've said it since my earliest days of beekeeping - what we should have is national varroa month (September) where EVERY beekeeper in the UK is legally obliged to treat their bees for varroa - properly - I'm sufficiently liberal to say that it can be their treatment of choice - my preferred treatment would be OA by sublimation. Reducing the mite load on a national basis - at the same time - would have a major impact on our bees - a second varroa month (March ?) where mandatory follow up treatment is required would consolidate the reduced mite load nationally.

The considered and accepted wisdom is that the vast majority of honey bees in the UK are in managed colonies - yes, there will still be feral colonies out there with levels of varroa but, if we tackle the managed colonies nationally, this will benefit the feral colonies. If the perceived wisdom, that feral colonies are varroa bombs, they will die out - along with their varroa load - or their mites will migrate to managed colonies and will be eradicated in the 'national varroa months'. Or .. the feral colonies will survive and become an asset to our national bee stock.

I'm under no illusion that this is ever going to happen ... getting two beekeepers to agree on anything is hard enough - inflicting a national, mandatory, requirement on the beekeeping community has little chance of success.

In the meantime, those of us who are TF may be in the vanguard of the future ... ?
 
I’m still swayed towards a mite bomb theory. What other explanation is there for massive drops for weeks?, well past the four that routine vapes take care of.
Like I said ... we don't know .. if some colonies are predisposed to attract or be unable to manage varroa in any way then that could be an explanation ? If there are dead out colonies in the area then surely all bees would seek them out and rob them and you would get spikes in all colonies when that source of honey is available ... but for only one colony out of 13 ? and consistently over a long period of time - it rather detracts from the mite bomb theory ? I'm open minded - until someone puts tracking devices on bees to see where they go (as Dave Goulson did in Brighton) and forage - we won't know.
 
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