New renegade beekeeper Stirlingshire

[Beesnaturally]

Wow!!!!! Emma, some of the beekeepers on this forum have been looking after bees for the best part of their lives, some into their 80's, incredible amount of experience and knowledge gained over the years. They know what works and what doesn't, they have tried and tested various ways of beekeeping. We are in our third year and I made a lot of my decisions based on my mentor and the opinions from this forum. I'm confident that most on here have the welfare of their bees at heart. A course,books and Internet may not be enough. You could try finding a mentor and getting more hands on experience before taking the leap of getting bees. I would be devastated to see one of my hives die out through not looking after them properly, and honestly so many things can go wrong. Diseases to look out for, when to treat, when to feed, when not to feed. Giving more space, not giving them to much space and the list goes on and on. Be careful not to jump in too quickly.

That's all true; but: not everybody is devasted to see hives die. Some see it as part of nature's pattern. If you think about it most bees die in 6 weeks or so. It doesn't matter; because they are part of a bigger organism.

In my operation letting bees die is how I find the strongest - just as nature does. I give them no support apart from taking out old comb. My bigger organism is the local breeding population. It is the health of the deme that matters more than individuals.

That's doesn't mean I like it. It means I accept it. The strongest survive and go on to make the next generation. That is how it must be for wild bees to have a chance.

 

[Antipodes]

Different subspecies of honey bee though, isn't it, and therefore may exhibit different patterns of behaviour?

James

Apis mellifera live here in Australia on the walls of the Umpherston Sinkhole in South Australia, which is a long way from the tropics of course.
https://queasypeasy.wordpress.com/2019/04/24/umpherstone-sinkhole/I know of a colony of apis mellifera living out in the open on a tree in Melbourne and have removed and boxed two outdoor nests here in Tassie. Normally what gives them away is when comb gets heavier with honey in spring and then drops to the ground on a warmer day. People then notice this weird looking stuff on the ground and then and then look up.

 

[Nannysbees]

That's all true; but: not everybody is devasted to see hives die. Some see it as part of nature's pattern. If you think about it most bees die in 6 weeks or so. It doesn't matter; because they are part of a bigger organism.

In my operation letting bees die is how I find the strongest - just as nature does. I give them no support apart from taking out old comb. My bigger organism is the local breeding population. It is the health of the deme that matters more than individuals.

That's doesn't mean I like it. It means I accept it. The strongest survive and go on to make the next generation. That is how it must be for wild bees to have a chance.

I've only the four hives at the bottom of my garden,and I would be devastated!!!

 

[madasafish]

With 100 hives, you can afford to lose 10 hives and can replace quickly.
With two hives, one hive lost is 50% of the total

 

[Beesnaturally]

With 100 hives, you can afford to lose 10 hives and can replace quickly.
With two hives, one hive lost is 50% of the total

Sure. No-one said it was easy. as I've said, small beekeepers grouping together offer a way forward.

A friend of mine keeps three hives and breaks one into three nucs each year. If you could obtain resistant queens and do that you could probably go on indefinately without treating or mollycoddling. You wouldn't be weakening the deme.

 

[maddydog]

If someone chooses to put a cow poo smeared wicker basket in a tree and bees of their own free will choose to inhabit it is that in anyway different to putting up a nest box for birds?

 

[emmac79]

If someone chooses to put a cow poo smeared wicker basket in a tree and bees of their own free will choose to inhabit it is that in anyway different to putting up a nest box for birds?

And more importantly, if it falls and there's no-one there to hear it, does it make a buzz?

 

[emmac79]

For those interested in skeps, I've found a particularly awesome resource by way of Chris Park (thank you to the member that messaged me about him) and I'm delighted to see that he runs day courses, which I fully intend to attend.

https://www.beesfordevelopment.org/bee-involved/courses/
I'll be researching the skep beekeeping much more deeply through his work. Posting here as one day someone may search for this and come across the thread.

 

[Murox]

And more importantly, if it falls and there's no-one there to hear it, does it make a buzz?

Only if it gets tweeted .

 

[pargyle]

For those interested in skeps, I've found a particularly awesome resource by way of Chris Park (thank you to the member that messaged me about him) and I'm delighted to see that he runs day courses, which I fully intend to attend.

https://www.beesfordevelopment.org/bee-involved/courses/
I'll be researching the skep beekeeping much more deeply through his work. Posting here as one day someone may search for this and come across the thread.

You don't need to spend £150 on a course. They are quite easy to make, although they take time and it's a bit tough on your hands unless you are used to working with rough materials.

I start with a disk of plywood about 8" in diameter with holes drilled around the permimeter, This is easier than the more traditional coil of straw to the centre. You need a bundle of thatchers long straw and either split basketwork cane or the more traditional split bramble for the binding. You can use butchers string which is easier on the hands but may not last as long.

The tools you need are a funnel through which to feed the straw - the traditional 'tool' is a hollow cow horn but a 250ml plastic |Coca cola or Sprite bottle with the top and bottom cut off serves just as well. You need a fid to make a hole in the straw to pass the binding through (if you are using string as your binding an upholsters needle works wiith either a sailsmakers palm or a block to push the needle through.

After that .. it's just the monotony of forming the rope of straw and gradually binding the coils of straw together.

https://www.bmstores.co.uk/products/coca-cola-8-x-250ml-239712
https://www.brandonthatchers.co.uk/products/bundles-bales-farm-produce/straw-bundle/
https://www.basketryandbeyond.org.uk/brambles-basketmaking/
https://www.fredaldous.co.uk/collections/cane-seating-and-basketry/products/chair-cane
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tenn-Well-...eywords=butchers+string&qid=1650060270&sr=8-5
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sewing-Nee...060497&sprefix=upholstery+nee,aps,115&sr=8-57

 

[Erichalfbee]

Crikey , Philip....... you make skeps too? Is there no end to your talent?

 

[emmac79]

You don't need to spend £150 on a course. They are quite easy to make, although they take time and it's a bit tough on your hands unless you are used to working with rough materials.

I start with a disk of plywood about 8" in diameter with holes drilled around the permimeter, This is easier than the more traditional coil of straw to the centre. You need a bundle of thatchers long straw and either split basketwork cane or the more traditional split bramble for the binding. You can use butchers string which is easier on the hands but may not last as long.

The tools you need are a funnel through which to feed the straw - the traditional 'tool' is a hollow cow horn but a 250ml plastic |Coca cola or Sprite bottle with the top and bottom cut off serves just as well. You need a fid to make a hole in the straw to pass the binding through (if you are using string as your binding an upholsters needle works wiith either a sailsmakers palm or a block to push the needle through.

After that .. it's just the monotony of forming the rope of straw and gradually binding the coils of straw together.

https://www.bmstores.co.uk/products/coca-cola-8-x-250ml-239712
https://www.brandonthatchers.co.uk/products/bundles-bales-farm-produce/straw-bundle/
https://www.basketryandbeyond.org.uk/brambles-basketmaking/
https://www.fredaldous.co.uk/collections/cane-seating-and-basketry/products/chair-cane
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tenn-Well-...eywords=butchers+string&qid=1650060270&sr=8-5
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sewing-Nee...060497&sprefix=upholstery+nee,aps,115&sr=8-57

You’re absolutely right, I wasn’t planning on attending the skep making course as I’m absolutely shocking at anything remotely technical or creative and I also have zero time (us middle class eco fashionistas are terribly busy reading Guardian articles these days). I do very much appreciate you adding in those links. A braver person than I will give it a try, I hope. I prefer to rely on skilled folk on Etsy etc.

The course I’m booking on to is the more generic ‘how to bee keep with skeps’, which I’m hoping will give me a broader understanding of the practical side of things. Chris is terribly interesting and seems to be one of the main sources of skep information in the UK.

Thank you

 

[pargyle]

Crikey , Philip....... you make skeps too? Is there no end to your talent?

Not an expert by any means ... I've made two. A fellow association member used to run a one day course once a year in skep making .. it got me started, by the end of the days course I had nearly made one. Finished the dome but not the floor at home, left it in the garage where a mouse demolished it over winter ..

Used the plywood disc from the first to make a second one which was intended for swarm catching - left that in the shed and the roof leaked ... didn't notice and by the time I noticed ... mouldy wet straw with mildew.

At this stage...I'm £30 in for materials and no workable skep and no inclination or time available to go through the whole painful process again.

The hardest bit is getting the 'rope' of straw even - feeding it in to the bottom end of the coke bottle and keeping the coil going and binding it, forming the dome and once you have got the first coil formed and bound to the plywood disc then binding the next coil to it whilst keeping the coil good and tight. It's quite therapeutic once you have got started, but I reckon, for an amateur first time skep maker, you are looking at about 15 hours at least to make a skep and floor.

For a decent sized skep you are looking at forming at least 12 to 15 rows and with a bit of maths you can work out you are making a straw 'rope' getting on for 40 metres long !

There's a good instructable here:

https://modernfarmer.com/2013/05/how-to-build-a-bee-skep/
Personally, once for me was enough - twice was masochistic.

You can buy a ready made one for £81.50 which is a bargain as far as I'm concerned although swarm collection for me is the only use I'd consider a skep for and a cardboard box does the job just as well.

https://beekeeping.co.uk/products/full-size-skep?_pos=1&_sid=e06d6297d&_ss=r

 

[rolande]

swarm collection for me is the only use I'd consider a skep for and a cardboard box does the job just as well.

I did keep a colony of bees in a cardboard box for a year when I was a youngster. Sat it on the bedroom window sill (18inch walls). Wasn't much inspecting going on though! The bees themselves were no problem, keeping the window open for a year in all weather's was another issue.

 

[emmac79]

I did keep a colony of bees in a cardboard box for a year when I was a youngster. Sat it on the bedroom window sill (18inch walls). Wasn't much inspecting going on though! The bees themselves were no problem, keeping the window open for a year in all weather's was another issue.

Wow!

 

[Lislarybees]

I just remembered this thread by Indibee - some very interesting use of skeps in Wales. Well worth a read
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/hello-from-wales.49739/post-754297

 

[emmac79]

I just remembered this thread by Indibee - some very interesting use of skeps in Wales. Well worth a read
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/hello-from-wales.49739/post-754297

Thank you!

 

[pargyle]

Yes . I remember that thread and Indiebee ... his method is to collect swarms in skeps, give them a year to prove they can survive and then transfer them to layens hives for honey production. Untreated bees he admits create dead outs and he accepts this as part and parcel of his beekeeping. He attributes survival in the face of varroa to using skeps .. I'm not convinced that skeps have anything to do with it.

I'm treatment free but as I have said, often in the past, there are more factors that can/do affect varroa levels that it is very difficult to say that any one factor is the catalyst for the bees ability to live alongside and manage varroa in the hives.

These factors include:

1. Location
2. Climate
3. Colony density in the location
4. Local forage
5. Hive insulation
6. Feeding or not
7. Foundation or not
8. Beekeeper interference
9. The bees

I rather think there is also a modicum of luck involved .. if all the 'right' conditions come together then it is possible to have healthy productive bees in the UK. But I would be reluctant to attribute success to any one factor - and in some circumstances allowing a colony to become over infested with mites will result in a weak colony and more than likely colony death.

Would I recommend being treatment free to a new beekeeper starting out on their beekeeping journey ? Certainly not ... too many risks involved. Is it possible in the longer term ? Yes .. but it requires vigilance and frequent testing and in most cases is a harder beekeeping path to follow than applying one of the most effective, relatively natural, treatments - Oxalic Acid by sublimation.

Do not be drawn in to the 'let alone' promise/premise that 'bees will survive if left alone'. Sometimes they will but be prepared for some colonies to succumb to the effects of varroa and worse still ALL your colonies succumb

 

[emmac79]

Yes . I remember that thread and Indiebee ... his method is to collect swarms in skeps, give them a year to prove they can survive and then transfer them to layens hives for honey production. Untreated bees he admits create dead outs and he accepts this as part and parcel of his beekeeping. He attributes survival in the face of varroa to using skeps .. I'm not convinced that skeps have anything to do with it.

I'm treatment free but as I have said, often in the past, there are more factors that can/do affect varroa levels that it is very difficult to say that any one factor is the catalyst for the bees ability to live alongside and manage varroa in the hives.

These factors include:

1. Location
2. Climate
3. Colony density in the location
4. Local forage
5. Hive insulation
6. Feeding or not
7. Foundation or not
8. Beekeeper interference
9. The bees

I rather think there is also a modicum of luck involved .. if all the 'right' conditions come together then it is possible to have healthy productive bees in the UK. But I would be reluctant to attribute success to any one factor - and in some circumstances allowing a colony to become over infested with mites will result in a weak colony and more than likely colony death.

Would I recommend being treatment free to a new beekeeper starting out on their beekeeping journey ? Certainly not ... too many risks involved. Is it possible in the longer term ? Yes .. but it requires vigilance and frequent testing and in most cases is a harder beekeeping path to follow than applying one of the most effective, relatively natural, treatments - Oxalic Acid by sublimation.

Do not be drawn in to the 'let alone' promise/premise that 'bees will survive if left alone'. Sometimes they will but be prepared for some colonies to succumb to the effects of varroa and worse still ALL your colonies succumb

Yes, I think this is excellent. Thank you.

There are a lot of factors involved.

I guess it's akin to plopping a bunch of us in the wild and expecting us to thrive/survive Many probably wouldn't make it past the first few days...

 

[Beesnaturally]

Probably none would survive. But if you dropped 1000 people in a (large) forest, perhaps 20 would, and they'd know how it's done. They'd teach their children, and in fifty years or so you might have a thriving community that can sustain itself indefinately.

Nature's way is: massive overproduction, followed by ruthless winnowing. That is what keeps populations healthy and attuned to their environment.

It is that process that the successful husbandryman imitates.

Now where did I put my tin hat...