New Queen, Small, a problem ?

[BrianO]

Hi

Had double brood national full of bees when examined 10 days go, also sealed queen cells, my bad but due to other pressures couldn't get to them to prevent this.

Anyway created 3 new colonies in Polynucs , leaving sealed QC in each with brood and a good compliment if nurse and foragers, moved to different Apiary, left original hive on single brood likewise with brood and sealed QC.

Opened up original hive today, still some sealed brood, no eggs or larvae, QC vacated and found her.

Now after background to point, new queen was small, smaller than my others. I caught her and decided to mark her.... Not sure good idea ?? Obviously did not clip her as not sure she has mated. Marked her as due to size thought in future could be really difficult to find her again.

In her favour she was extremely active, literally running around the frame and even when in clip cage was frantic, also obviously good pheromone trail as were bees frantically trying to get to her when cage was outside of hive.

Could add a frame of brood with larvae if need be for them to raise a new QC from a nearby strong hive, or is there a chance she could do well ?

Thanks

 

[Finman]

.
Buy a good laying Queen. Your learning curve will rise better than rearing your own. Secret is the origin of mother hive.

 

[oliver90owner]

Marked before mated - not a good idea. Some small queens can move through the excluder at will (depends how small, of course). There is a fair chance she could do well. Running around the frames is not necessarily a particularly good trait (for the beekeeper). She may also have been about to go on a mating flight as well - many beeks interfere with colonies at particularly awkward times for the bees natural activities.

I would never expect any new brood that quickly after swarming, or probably even if those cells were 'ripe' and the queens about to emerge. I would generally have left two sealed cells in any small colony if I wanted them all to finish with a queen.

 

[BrianO]

Thanks, OK. Noted and filed away for future reference.

Opened late yesterday as in 7.00 pm so would not have been heading out looking for romance.

Though small queens can be OK as in good layers ?

 

[jonnybeegood]

.
Buy a good laying Queen. Your learning curve will rise better than rearing your own. Secret is the origin of mother hive.

I would have thought rearing your own queen is a greater learning curve than getting one in the post?

 

[Arfermo]

Marked before mated - not a good idea. Some small queens can move through the excluder at will (depends how small, of course). There is a fair chance she could do well. Running around the frames is not necessarily a particularly good trait (for the beekeeper). She may also have been about to go on a mating flight as well - many beeks interfere with colonies at particularly awkward times for the bees natural activities.

I would never expect any new brood that quickly after swarming, or probably even if those cells were 'ripe' and the queens about to emerge. I would generally have left two sealed cells in any small colony if I wanted them all to finish with a queen.

Yeah to all that. ONLY MARK AFTER LAYING HAS STARTED !!! Clip her wings too while you are about it so as to avoid nuisance to you and others around you..

 

[Stiffy]

Thanks, OK. Noted and filed away for future reference.

Opened late yesterday as in 7.00 pm so would not have been heading out looking for romance.

Though small queens can be OK as in good layers ?

I have had some small queens that have been good layers.
Might just be mine, but I don't like queens that run too much as this tends to also pass onto the colony and I find they tend to be less easy to work.
S

 

[BrianO]

Yeah to all that. ONLY MARK AFTER LAYING HAS STARTED !!! Clip her wings too while you are about it so as to avoid nuisance to you and others around you..
__________________

Why only making after laying has started, only reasons I could think for avoiding this would be

making might make her more visible to predators such as swifts & swallows when on mating flights

handling whilst marking if not gentle enough might damage her, but same could be said for handling after marking

So is there any other reasons , as long as, as I did, you open the hive in the late evening , as in 7.00pm on she should not be about to go on a mating flight . i say that based on readings here and from an association lecture.

Also anyone else opinions on a small queen, or even better have one that has or has not perfomed ?

Thanks. !

 

[kevrhcfag]

Thanks, OK. Noted and filed away for future reference.

Opened late yesterday as in 7.00 pm so would not have been heading out looking for romance.

Though small queens can be OK as in good layers ?

Yes can be very good, just the same as nice big ones can be absolutely useless, only time will tell.

Virgins / newly mated queens can be very flighty anyway and you were lucky she didn't fly off when messing with her. If she is still heading out (likely) then all you have done is painted a target on her back.

 

[Fatbee]

Colony might ball her as well if you mess around too early. Had this happen to me the other day - had to see it to believe it. Lesson learnt.

 

[Elaine]

If the queen doesn't perform - the bees will vote to supersede her - so I would leave them to decide for themselves.

 

[Thymallus]

ROB Manley often said the size of a queen was no indicator of her performance. We men have been saying something similar for years.

Virgin queens are very much smaller than mated queens where the abdomen expands, perhaps the OP found a virgin queen?

 

[Obee1]

ROB Manley often said the size of a queen was no indicator of her performance. We men have been saying something similar for years.

And we women didn't believe a word of it

 

[BrianO]

Yes can be very good, just the same as nice big ones can be absolutely useless, only time will tell.

Virgins / newly mated queens can be very flighty anyway and you were lucky she didn't fly off when messing with her. If she is still heading out (likely) then all you have done is painted a target on her back.

Woo easy, wasn't that bad... but know where you're comin from , another lesson learnt !

 

[BeeJayBee]

Why only making after laying has started,

Because they can produce a replacement from these eggs, which might be needed if she is damaged during marking or if they try to kill her because they don't like the new pattern on her thorax.

To be sure she's alive, and has mated.

The only way you can be sure she's mated is when you see capped worker brood. Poorly mated queens lay mostly drones, unmated queens lay only drones.

 

[BrianO]

Because they can produce a replacement from these eggs, which might be needed if she is damaged during marking or if they try to kill her because they don't like the new pattern on her thorax.

To be sure she's alive, and has mated.

The only way you can be sure she's mated is when you see capped worker brood. Poorly mated queens lay mostly drones, unmated queens lay only drones.

Thanks Beejay

Learnt quite a bit from this thread alone.

Fascinated to hear smaller quens can be just as prolific as layers as their larger counterparts. Looking forward to seeing if she made it and makes the grade.

Will open up again in a week or so to check.

Had used plunger cage to mark, found using queen clip cage/catcher and then releasing her from this into plunger much easier than previous method employed, just ushering her into plunger.

Anyone else found this as they can be hard to catch

 

[rolande]

Fascinated to hear smaller quens can be just as prolific as layers as their larger counterparts.

Just to offer a different perspective, Larry Connor's thoughts on small queens:

Size Matters. How Important Is The Size Of The Queen?

http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/files/articles/Bee_Culture/BC2008-08.pdf

 

[Thymallus]

But does not even evaluate small queens or even measure the sizes of the "large" ones he rears. He is suggesting they are small because they are not fed sufficiently. Good nutrition is one of the keys to good queens, but not final size. I think he is confusing two issues here.

 

[rolande]

ROB Manley often said the size of a queen was no indicator of her performance.

The following quote from 'Honey Farming' seems to imply that he was no fan of "weedy-looking" virgins.

There is one point I'd like to make while dealing with using queen-right colonies in this way. It will often be found that the cells built appear rather small beside those constructed by swarming colonies or by artificial swarms as described below. I think this is caused by the established queen-right cell-building colonies not being in the state that favours heavy secretion of wax, whereas swarms or bees about to swarm, are. The cells look small because they are less massively constructed, and may appear quite diminutive when compared to those built by swarming bees or by artificial swarms made queenless, but virgins from them are usually as good as can be desired. It is not the size of the cell or it's external appearance that matters, but the amount of royal jelly consumed by it's occupant. There are few things more misleading than cell size as a means of judging what sort of queen may be expected to emerge. I have seen very small, weedy-looking virgins come from large and well-built cells, and as often have seen very fine ones issue from cells that would be discarded if judged only by appearance.

 

[rolande]

But does not even evaluate small queens or even measure the sizes of the "large" ones he rears. He is suggesting they are small because they are not fed sufficiently. Good nutrition is one of the keys to good queens, but not final size. I think he is confusing two issues here.

As I said, just another perspective to add to the thread.A starting point to look at things from more than an anecdotal perspective.