NBU/FERA starvation warning

[bontbee]

Apart from hefting what seems like a reasonable weight hive, but finding, too late, that it isn't what you think it is that you are hefting!

And I don't know how "they" might mess things up by having a quick look inside, especially given the weather we've had recently - in our area, at least.
Beginners are usually told that bees should have so much food in such and such a sized box to go into winter, but no one mentions the variability of the weather or the variability of bees - they are not encouraged to assess their own bees in their own area in the light of the vagaries of their local climate. And how will they learn if they don't know what is going on inside. It's all very well for those who are intuitive with bees - but most people aren't. It's a hard way to learn by losing your bees but, more importantly, it's a waste of bees.

(and, for info, I am definitely not one for supporting colonies at all costs)

 

[Dishmop]

Very little usefull information is to be gained by having a quick peek inside.
If you could only look at the frames in my observation hive from the top you would say that there was no food. Therefore to see properly what is in the cells you need to look from the side. Pulling frames out isnt a quick peek. Its a disturbance and a cause of heat loss.

It's a hard way to learn by losing your bees but, more importantly, it's a waste of bees.

and that's one reason why somebody who doesnt know if they should be looking inside, shouldnt be looking inside.

 

[bontbee]

And there we'll have to agree to differ...

 

[Dishmop]

And there we'll have to agree to differ...

I dont see that there is anything to differ about.

None of us agree about much on here anyway.
I just feel that new beeks are the first to open their hives because they want to look inside and as they are inexperienced a quick peek isnt going to be much good to them because its quite probable that they wont understand what they are seeing anyway, thus my example of looking at frames from the side to see if they have anything to eat. Just because there is no capped food doesnt mean they will starve nd that you have to slap on fondant on everywhere.

 

[bontbee]

I meant we'd have to agree to differ over whether pulling frames out causes disturbance and heat loss. I won't argue that it doesn't, just that it doesn't cause enough disturbance and heat loss to cause irreparable damage to a colony, whereas starvation generally does...

 

[mbc]

Both right, both wrong.

Pollen isnt heavy, neither are pollen, or bee bread, filled frames in comparison to frames with any appreciable honey.
Pulling framers in sub optimal conditions can set colonies back.

A quick peak under the crown board to look to see if theres any capped stores at the top of the frames coupled with a heft is a good way forward for early season assessments IMO. If it is nice enough to do a quick inspection its still a good idea to do a quick heft afterwards to correlate what the inspection reveals and what weight the hand feels. Experience is quickly gained and its not a difficult thing to get a good idea of stores, also, hefting with the roof off can cut out variations, some roofs are pretty heavy especially if they're a bit soggy or homemade out of thick timber.

 

[pargyle]

I dont see that there is anything to differ about.

None of us agree about much on here anyway.
I just feel that new beeks are the first to open their hives because they want to look inside and as they are inexperienced a quick peek isnt going to be much good to them because its quite probable that they wont understand what they are seeing anyway, thus my example of looking at frames from the side to see if they have anything to eat. Just because there is no capped food doesnt mean they will starve nd that you have to slap on fondant on everywhere.

+ 1

Speaking as a new beekeeper ... it's a compelling feeling that you REALLY need to know what it going on in the hive ... OVER WINTER ... let alone when we see the first (and the last two weeks have been the FIRST) signs of spring.

I had been warned by various mentors, beekeeping books, this forum, internet articles etc. that there would be the temptation to look in too soon and (being a bit impulsive anyway) I decided the only way that I would be able to resist was if I had information .... available without actually cracking the crownboard.

So ...

Temperature and humidity monitor recordings kept twice daily.
Inspection board in all the time and inspected daily.
Clear crownboard sealed to the top of the hive and a hinged roof.
Hive weighing at regular intervals.
A hive full of honey left in the hive in Autumn (and lots of insulation to keep the hive at their chosen ambience without undue effort).

The temperature data I collect and the debris on the inspection board is sufficient reassurance that the colony is alive and, to a degree, well.

The sealed clear crown board allowed me the occasional peek into the top of the hive on warm days ... I could see lots of live and healthy bees and stores at the top of the frames.

The hive weight recordings tell me that there's still a fair amount of stores left in the hive.

Therefore, I felt and still feel sufficiently confident to resist the (almost irresistible) urge 'to just have a peek' once we have a few warmish days and see bees flying. I feel a huge amount of empathy with those people who felt it WAS necessary to 'Have a quick look' but I'm with Dishmop .. what did these 'quick looks' achieve, did you find anything that needed attention and if you did ... what are you going to do about it next year so that you don't have to look in your hives before you can do it in shorts and a T-shirt ?

It takes a bit of effort and foreplanning to take measures to avoid the 'Quick Look Syndrome' and I feel sure that those with more than a few hives will say 'once you have overwintered a few times and know your colonies there is no need to interfere ... or to worry to the point where you NEED to put measures in place like weighing etc'. Hefting for those with experience is probably enough .. along with other external signs.

But we are talking mainly new beekeepers here ... and as one ... I know what it feels like.

 

[Dishmop]

I have two full colonies at home and two somewhere else.

A couple of times I have hefted by giving a quick lift on one side.

Both those at home and the other site give the impresson that one is heavy and the other is light...........

I suppose the initial response for a first year beek, after reading this forum, would be to panic on the assumption that the light hive/s are at starvation level and to initiate "operation quick peek".
As it turns out, my light hives appear to have had adequate stores and therefore the heavy ones had more than adequate.
My observation hive started eating the remainder of their capped stores about 4 weeks ago (which amounted to more than half of what they had in November) and at the same time started filling those frames with new stores.There is (are?) now no longer any capped stores visible, but plenty of new nectar.
I see no reason why the situation regarding stores is any differerent in my obs hive than that in the other hives so therefore operation "lift roof quick peek" would not reveal the contents of cells which are uncapped.

I think it is right that new beeks should ask if they have concerns rather than blindly blunder on because of what they have read somehere about how much food a colony needs for winter.
With the amount of syrup and fondant that some people seem to feed I often wonder what percentage of what they extract early in the season is in fact pure honey.
The fact that a swarm can move into a new home and survive without being fed is the reason why I dont feed collected swarms and splits.

The reason why a colony is short on food for winter doesnt take much working out really. Mostly its because you stole it.

 

[user 6228]

Another approach is to put a small amount of fondant (100 -250gm) in a very shallow eke and feeding board and then see how long it takes to dissappear. That amount will not fill the brood box. If there is sufficient nectar or honey around they will probably ignore it.
Note in this case the fondant is not on the frames or directly over the hole and it is in insulated hived so bee/cluster mobility/isolation is not a concern

 

[Dishmop]

To explain to a new beek my references to not being able to see uncapped anything in a hive unless you pull the frame out..
This frame if viewed from the top would appear to be empty, and a quick peek would not show what is there.

 

[yellowrage 53]

Another approach is to put a small amount of fondant (100 -250gm) in a very shallow eke and feeding board and then see how long it takes to dissappear. That amount will not fill the brood box. If there is sufficient nectar or honey around they will probably ignore it.
Note in this case the fondant is not on the frames or directly over the hole and it is in insulated hived so bee/cluster mobility/isolation is not a concern

i like that idea