Natural beekeeping varroa treatment

[johna]

If not treating the bees is a viable option , why do highly qualified and experienced bee inspectors advocate eradication of the varroa mite as much as possible ?.Their experience is that not to treat can lead to some serious virol infections as well as posing a viable threat to neighbouring beekeepers when their bees rob out dead and dying colonies.Would you advocate a "do-nothing" policy with EFB because it has been known for the colony to remove affected larva and apparently "clean" the hive ? - I rather think not.

 

[Chris Luck]

Would you advocate a "do-nothing" policy with EFB because it has been known for the colony to remove affected larva and apparently "clean" the hive ? - I rather think not.

So what would you advocate?

Chris

 

[Dishmop]

If not treating the bees is a viable option , why do highly qualified and experienced bee inspectors advocate eradication of the varroa mite as much as possible ?.Their experience is that not to treat can lead to some serious virol infections as well as posing a viable threat to neighbouring beekeepers when their bees rob out dead and dying colonies.Would you advocate a "do-nothing" policy with EFB because it has been known for the colony to remove affected larva and apparently "clean" the hive ? - I rather think not.

Inspectors are entitled to thier opinions as indeed are you, but it looks as if you may have arrived at your opinion because of what the highly qualified and experienced bee inspectors believe.

"can lead to"...... Falling over can lead to an injury, or not.

"it has been known" .... It is also been known not to.

 

[johna]

Inspectors are entitled to thier opinions as indeed are you, but it looks as if you may have arrived at your opinion because of what the highly qualified and experienced bee inspectors believe.

No Dishmop,my opinions are based on what I see as common sense and a considered approach to the health and welfare of my bees.I've successfully kept bees for 40 years and have weighed up the pro's and con's of "to treat or not to treat" and in my HUMBLE opinion ,not to treat is irresponsible ,both to the welfare of my bees and that of my neibours.If your opinion differs from mine then,so be it.You are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.That we don't necessarily agree is irrelevant to the issue and I wouldn't dream of forcing MY opinion on to you.I just put things down as I see them.

 

[Dishmop]

Dont get me wrong, I'm not waging war on anybody here, nor taking the p*** or whatever....

So basically do you treat your bees because you think that it's the common sense thing to do, or because you lost some because you didnt treat them?

Or did you arrive at your common sense opinion to treat them because somebody else lost some through non treatment?

 

[oliver90owner]

Would you advocate a "do-nothing" policy with EFB because it has been known for the colony to remove affected larva and apparently "clean" the hive ? - I rather think not.

Johna,

Chris is in France. Directives and action, in France, may be different to the requirements (as a notifiable disease) in the UK.

Regards, RAB

 

[johna]

Hi Rab,point taken.
Dishmop,I haven't lost bees to disease but have taken over bees from another source that were riddled with SERIOUS varroa when the previous owner hadn't recognised he had a proble.Mite drops of over 3000 mites from a neuc plus crawling bees with evidence of DWV ie.distorted , crumpled wings and severely truncated abdomens,and thats only the mites on the adult bees-would you have not treated them ?.That they survived at all is a bit of a miracle.Yes I've lost bees but only due to poisoning when a local farmer decided to treat Pod Midge on open flowers on a bright sunny day.I've been fortunate not to have suffered AFB or EFB .I've had bees that suffered from Nosema Apis which I treated with Fumidil B - I haven't had N.cerenia.When studying for my BBKA Senior beekeeping exam some 27 years ago I had the fortune to work with Clive deBryuin at the Bee Diseases unit he set up at Luddington so perhaps my opinions are somewhat coloured by that experience.

 

[oliver90owner]

I, too, have bought bees riddled with varroa.

I had good reason to 'buy off' another beek (and I was completely aware of the dire health of the colonies) resident at the same site as me. The bees were riddlied with varroa and at the point of collapse. He had left apistan strips in over winter (to no avail and with obvious resistant mite increase, surprise, surprise). The bees did not survive (at least one of the two colonies, I recall, and probably both).

Luckily he wanted less than the hives were worth (with no bees in them), so I ridded myself of a 'resistant mite encourager' took over the site on my own, and was all ways round far better off, and soon had one or two cheap, empty hives for use as extras.

It was only my second year keeping bees, but that taught me a lot, regarding varroa and likely mortality of colonies suffering excessive varroa infestation. With that experience, I have most certainly been able to recognise a colony suffering varroa infestation verging on colony collapse. I don't want to see my colonies like that - ever.

Regards, RAB

 

[johna]

Yes nasty experience isn't it Rab.

 

[oliver90owner]

At the time I was more interested in enticing him away from the site. It was either him or me and I didn't really want to move! I still .use the site

I was certainly concerned at varroa and other disease issues while he was still there!

Not a nice experience, agreed, but one that taught me a lot about varroa and improper/ lack of treatment.

Regards, RAB

 

[Nellie]

Dont get me wrong, I'm not waging war on anybody here, nor taking the p*** or whatever....

So basically do you treat your bees because you think that it's the common sense thing to do, or because you lost some because you didnt treat them?

Or did you arrive at your common sense opinion to treat them because somebody else lost some through non treatment?

I treat mine because I've seen first hand over multiple colonies what varroa does. All of those colonies were part of a programme looking at possible ways of keeping bees without needing to treat.

I don't have the luxury of scale to indulge in that kind of experimentation so until someone develops a reliable bee or mechanism to keep bees that means I can forgo chemical treatments like thymol and icing sugar then I'll take the option that I consider to be the lesser evil for the time being.

 

[johna]

Well said Nellie

 

[MJBee]

When I lived in the UK I did not treat for varroa. BUT from 1980 when I started to 1999 when I left for France moves of house and therefore apiary because of work were progressively Northwards - Devon, Mid Wales, Scottish Border. I like to think I was one jump ahead of varroa's march north as I saw no evidence of infestation.

Having got restarted over here with a donated Nuc in 2000 I built up to 4 x double brood Nationals and again did not treat. Over the winter of 07/08 I lost 75% - Plenty of stores, lots of dead bees and thousands of dead varroa (solid floors)

That was my wake up call - All my colonies are now on OMF, All are treated with Thymol, and depending on varroa drop levels marked for OA at Christmas.

While I respect the "don't treat" view I beg to differ as my non intervention almost reduced me to a caretaker of empty hives.

 

[Chris Luck]

Over the winter of 07/08 I lost 75%

You and a lot of other people in France although the exact percentage varied a bit. I understand the cause for the other keepers losses isn't at all clear and is still a matter of some controversy, mine as you know were fine mercifully.

It should be added that it was only that year that stands out.

Funny old world.

Chris

 

[happyculteur]

It should be added that it was only that year that stands out.



Chris

?? Hello Chris. Down here, last winter was worse. And most people don't know why. Whether they treated or not. I think there are far too many causes interacting to be able to say it's this or it's that. The problem with treating is that the ecosystem is played around with, and chain effects can be set up, with us treating more and more.
The trouble with not treating is that you lose colonies. Most of the time in most places. For each of us to do what he feels comfortable with.

 

[Mickby]

It seems to me that most people who have had bad varroa infestations leading to sickly and dying colonies are unlikely to want to try the no treatment route in future, whatever the advice given about resistant strains (of bees) etc.

The opposite is likely to apply to anyone lucky enough not to have had these experiences.

Personally I am waiting for widespread availability of "varroa resistant" queens and until such time intend to continue to treat when varroa numbers increase.

 

[Nellie]

It seems to me that most people who have had bad varroa infestations leading to sickly and dying colonies are unlikely to want to try the no treatment route in future, whatever the advice given about resistant strains (of bees) etc.

Believe me, if someone told me that dancing round a cow horn at midnight whilst wearing purple underpants meant I wouldn't need to treat my bees for Varroa and could back it up with some reasonable evidence then I'd give it a go.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Believe me, if someone told me that dancing round a cow horn at midnight whilst wearing purple underpants meant I wouldn't need to treat my bees for Varroa and could back it up with some reasonable evidence then I'd give it a go.
Don't try it Nellie....it could well work....frighten the mites to death.lol..

Would that be classed as natural?

 

[Nellie]

Only if there were no witnesses.

 

[Chris Luck]

Would that be classed as natural?

Sounds quite natural to me although it would depend on the dyes used for the purple, perhaps naked would be better.

Chris