National to Deep National

[badger65]

This is my second year and my National is building great guns. I would like to move this colony to a deep national. What would you do?

1. Just place the National frames into the deep National and let them build on the bottom naturally.

2. Place the deep National on top of the National and try to migrate.

My objectives this year are to max out on honey and split the colony. I realise that some of these things may be in contention but would like your thoughts.

 

[Davidwd]

I am a newbee with exactly the same issue i used the migration method, then when the queen moves to the top i will fit a QE between them. When all the brood in the bottom has hatched i will remove it and the colony will be working all new foundation in the 14 x 12.

I am sure someone will offer a better procedure than i can though, but i hope this helps.

 

[kevrhcfag]

We have only just started out, but it did our heads in trying to decide which way to go so many choices, at the end we decided on double brood.

Given that you will need to convert to deep from standard and you want to split anyway, is that an option you have thought about? I am not even going to bother to try and remember all the pro's and cons of each system, my head hasn't recovered from the last time yet.

 

[Polyanwood]

I would like to move this colony to a deep national. What would you do?

1. Just place the National frames into the deep National and let them build on the bottom naturally.

2. Place the deep National on top of the National and try to migrate.

If the frames are last years you could just throw away the ones which have been well used and where the wax is dark and put the others in the 14 x 12 as they are and top up with new 14 x 12 frames. You then gradually move the Standard frames to the outside of the box and replace them with 14 x 12. If you remove all the brood it might be worth putting a QX under the box for a little while. ( This is a low intervention approach, better than planning to end up with lots of frames with brace combs under them as per 1.)

If you have a high varroa count, and there is a flow and good weather forecast a shook swarm is really good.

Or you could do a Bailey frame change as you suggest in 2 - benefit of this is you get clean comb quite quickly, but disadvantage is that it does not help control varroa.

 

[REDWOOD]

Best way is a baileys comb change, lots of info here
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=9504

 

[oliver90owner]

deep National

Just to be pedantic (as some will likely say) - so you don't muddle beeks in the future or order the wrong stuff from a supplier, a deep National is the standard issue. The 14 x 12 is the 'extra deep'.

Deep frames as in DN1 etc fit the Deep box.SN1 etc fit the Shallow box. Extra deeps fit the 14 x 12 box.

Same for foundation - ask for deep and you will be sent foundation for the deep frames for a deep box.

Yes, it is confusing for some. Even seasoned beeks seem to ignore the convention at times.

RAB

 

[badger65]

I have a 14x12

 

[oliver90owner]

That's right, I suppose - well, you seem to have a deep brood box at present and you want to change it to a 14 x 12.

 

[badger65]

No. I have a regular brood box. Last year I had to use a super also.

 

[oliver90owner]

Please yourself but a regular brood box is a deep and takes deep frames. End of story, but obviousluy you think you know better. Good day.

 

[badger65]

I'll pick up the toys.

 

[FreeFall]

RAB is right though. A deep is a brood box, a shallow is a super (or half brood). A 14 x 12 is 'extra deep'.

You seem to have a deep that you want to move into an extra deep (14 x 12).

Nick

 

[oliver90owner]

Thanks, Nick. (S)he can pick up the dummy, too, before climbing back in.

 

[drstitson]

re old brood frames after bailey change.

some will probably have stores - keep for nucs.
well used brood frames will come in handy for bait hives (if your bees are healthy).

 

[iombeeman]

question....do you want more space for your queen to lay in,is she using all the space on the single brood.if she is then double brood (or half brood),but if not why bother,it just means more work for you.

 

[drstitson]

laying space not the sole issue surely.
a 14x12 gives a nice single box solution wrt STORES space for the winter.
a full 14x12 will get through ok without disturbance or worry.

 

[Erichalfbee]

If the colony is a strong one could you wait till there are swarm preparations and when you do your AS put your one frame with the queen on into your new 14 x 12 then gradually work that frame out. That way you'll get a crop from them and increase too. Then you can Bailey change your parent colony when the new queen starts laying.......just an idea?

 

[itma]

I have a 14x12

No. I have a regular brood box. Last year I had to use a super also.

A (standard) National deep can be converted to an extra-deep or jumbo (14x12) by adding an eke.
While Thorns version goes on top of the old brood box (so all frames out and then fiddle with the rails), Maisemoors goes underneath - simplicity itself to install between floor and brood, and then sort out the frames in your own time. ( thanks to whoever on the forum told me that one!)
Other manufacturers are available ...
Not hard to make from scratch for a woodworker, just the chunky bits of cedar that must account for the cost.

You should plan how to make your increase carefully. Having a third box (or at least a (14x12) nuc hive) is going to be a feature of most methods ... be prepared!

/ A couple of shallow boxes ("supers") can just about stand in very temporarily for a 14x12 brood ...

 

[badger65]

Thanks all.

 

[Rosti]

Just caught up with this thread. Since there is no indication of disease in the current comb I disagree with the bailey change option. I would demaree and maintain the critical mass of the colony and fully utilise current brood during the transition. R