National to 14x12

[menteth]

Hello happy beekeepers, 1 have 4 hives:
3 no 14x12and 1 no standard national. To keep things simple 1 want to get get the 4th into a 14x12 hive.
Is this the best time to do it?
And shall I just empty them in?
Thanks very much

 

[Anduril]

For the least disturance use a 14 x 12 eke you can make one using details from the Dave Cushman site or buy one. Choice of fitting underneath or on top and let the bees draw out wild comb underneath and then rotate in 14 x 12 frames.

 

[enrico]

Or use it as a shook swarm later in the season. Bit early to pour them onto foundation now unless it is drawn.
E

 

[jonnybeegood]

For the least disturance use a 14 x 12 eke you can make one using details from the Dave Cushman site or buy one. Choice of fitting underneath or on top and let the bees draw out wild comb underneath and then rotate in 14 x 12 frames.

Is that not causing more disturbance? To fit an Eke you would have to remove all the frames, put them somewhere else, fit the Eke then return the frames, surely it would be better to put the 14x12 hive in this hives place & just transfer the frames over in one go? If there was nothing on the outer frames you could change them for 14x12 foundation frames straight away, & swap the others over the next couple of months. I am only a beginner but i did this last year myself. You may need to feed to help them draw the comb if they are short of stores. I wouldnt do it just yet though.

 

[rolande]

put the 14x12 hive in this hives place & just transfer the frames over in one go? If there was nothing on the outer frames you could change them for 14x12 foundation frames straight away, & swap the others over the next couple of months. I am only a beginner but i did this last year myself. You may need to feed to help them draw the comb if they are short of stores. I wouldnt do it just yet though.

Sounds like a plan I'd use in this situation. A couple of tweaks would be: put a rough block of wood below the transferred frames just to deter the construction of unnecessary wild comb and, I'd be be removing the outer frames (in fact, any frame without brood) irrespective of whether they contained stores and replacing with frames of foundation (some might prefer to dummy down and add the new frames gradually but in truth I'd probably just do it all in one operation). Timing and observation is important of course but a warm April before the queen's laid across too many combs is probably as good a time as any.

 

[jonnybeegood]

Sounds like a plan I'd use in this situation. A couple of tweaks would be: put a rough block of wood below the transferred frames just to deter the construction of unnecessary wild comb and, I'd be be removing the outer frames (in fact, any frame without brood) irrespective of whether they contained stores and replacing with frames of foundation (some might prefer to dummy down and add the new frames gradually but in truth I'd probably just do it all in one operation). Timing and observation is important of course but a warm April before the queen's laid across too many combs is probably as good a time as any.

yes I thought that too, but if you put a block of wood under you wouldn't be able to change frames individually, I actually put separate blocks the width of each frame all together so I could remove each one as I changed each frame, the thing is you are then losing your mesh floor and ventilation because you've blocked it off, and varroa aren't dropping through.I removed them all and I found they didn't build in the gap, I changed the frames over 2 months.

 

[Anduril]

Is that not causing more disturbance? To fit an Eke you would have to remove all the frames, put them somewhere else, fit the Eke then return the frames, surely it would be better to put the 14x12 hive in this hives place & just transfer the frames over in one go? If there was nothing on the outer frames you could change them for 14x12 foundation frames straight away, & swap the others over the next couple of months. I am only a beginner but i did this last year myself. You may need to feed to help them draw the comb if they are short of stores. I wouldnt do it just yet though.

In a word no.
If the eke is underneath and you make it yourself. It is as simple as remove roof to grip brood box, leave coverboard on. Place brood box on to roof, place eke on floor, place brood box on eke and replace lid. No frames removed. As long as you are strong enough to do it by yourself, otherwise get an extra pair of hands. Job done in less than 2 minutes.

 

[oliver90owner]

Anduril is right re the eke beneath. Just lift the current box onto the eke; no disturbance at all. They can be sorted out later.

Crack the joint between brood box and floor earlier to make things easy at the time. The eke could then be gently positioned at virtually any time. Change in as many 14 x12 frames as you can (you have 3 or 5 other hives - you are saying 4, but profile says 6).

Another simple alternative is a Bailey change, when they are going well, weather is a little warmer and there is a flow on (otherwise they may need feeding) but think about timing if you don't wantsugar syrup in your honey.

Shook swarms are popular with some, but I would only consider it as a varroa reduction operation in most circumstances. I can usually avoid losing brood by making alternative manipulations. Simple enough to organise.

Consider the colony strength. Adding a frame of emerging brood from one of your other colonies would give them a big boost on the larger frame format.

Whatever you do, don't ever ''just'' do something. Give it a bit of thought and consider all the possibilities. List them and get rid of the poorer ideas, then choose the best of the rest atvthe time.

I was not sure you were emtying frames into the new box or bees!

RAB

 

[rolande]

the thing is you are then losing your mesh floor and ventilation because you've blocked it off, and varroa aren't dropping through.I removed them all and I found they didn't build in the gap, I changed the frames over 2 months.

A point which is probably relevant for the op, but in my case, there's no mesh floor to lose .

 

[itma]

For the least disturance use a 14 x 12 eke you can make one using details from the Dave Cushman site or buy one. Choice of fitting underneath or on top and let the bees draw out wild comb underneath and then rotate in 14 x 12 frames.

Believe me, an eke under, and gradual frame replacement is the simple way.

Is that not causing more disturbance? To fit an Eke you would have to remove all the frames, put them somewhere else, fit the Eke then return the frames, surely it would be better to ...

Not necessarily.
Fitting an eke UNDER the existing brood box is absolutely minimal intrusion/upset. (Maisemore sell that type of conversion eke.)
Just lift the brood box, eke on the existing floor, brood box back on top.
Thorne's conversion eke fits on top - which has two disadvantages - the need to remove the frames (and rails) to fit the eke, AND that it cannot be fitted to those hives (like Maisemore's) that have 'rails' that are non-removable shaping of the wooden side panel.

The eke below is quick and simple to fit, anytime.
When inspecting, any completely empty frames can be removed. One undrawn frame at a time can be inserted between the brood and stores once there is some warmth and a decent availability of nectar. Handling DN frames with wild comb beneath is excellent training for ensuring that the frame is kept in the vertical plane while being turned over for inspection!

 

[jonnybeegood]

In a word no.
If the eke is underneath and you make it yourself. It is as simple as remove roof to grip brood box, leave coverboard on. Place brood box on to roof, place eke on floor, place brood box on eke and replace lid. No frames removed. As long as you are strong enough to do it by yourself, otherwise get an extra pair of hands. Job done in less than 2 minutes.

Eke underneath? Of course you are right, i didnt consider that concept i normally think of Ekes going on top, Doh!
I couldnt do that with mine though as they were in a standard paynes nuc & they were going into a 14x12 hive, i could have put an Eke on top but not below, it was warmer weather then though so there was no problem changing mine over.

 

[Anduril]

Believe me, an eke under, and gradual frame replacement is the simple way.

Agreed, but the OP can have a choice. I prefer the eke underneath and for this job it is less invasive. But remember if you need to move it off the floor at a later date make sure the eke is fixed to the brood box and not loose, otherwise you will have angry bees when you put the brood box down minus the eke. Eke on top causes less problems when lifting, but it does mean removal of frame runners on brood box and making sure brood box and eke are compatible.

 

[psafloyd]

For the least disturance use a 14 x 12 eke you can make one using details from the Dave Cushman site or buy one. Choice of fitting underneath or on top and let the bees draw out wild comb underneath and then rotate in 14 x 12 frames.

I used a T eke a couple of years ago and have a couple more I have never got round to using yet.It worked well, though and is perfectly secure at the top DESPITE not being secured as I had originally intended.

 

[Tremyfro]

One of our colonies is in a Paynes 14x12 BB. We had a slightly different scenario...but the principle is the same. When we Nadired a super...we made an eke to fit inside the lugs....as we didn't want to remove the lugs. When the weather warms up a bit we will lift the BB and take out the nadir and the eke. You can do the same with your national...put an eke under...until you have changed all the frames to 14x12 ....then transfer into the jumbo box.

 

[itma]

A pukka 14x12 conversion eke can be a perfectly fine long term solution - that DN box plus its eke has become a 14x12.
And yes, don't rely on propolis to tie the two bits together. A couple of little brackets and a few small screws can save a potentially large embarrassment!

 

[Marton]

I got my first colony two years ago. I had decided on, ad bought, 14*12 BBs as well as ordered a 14*12 nuc. Because of the bad spring all I could get was a standard nuc. This came in a Paynes poly and when j transferred it I used Ts conversion kits for the frames.

The bees never went below the original frame bottom bar and I wish I had just left the frames as nationals with 14*12 frames outside and dealt with the inevitable wild comb and drone brood.

It may have been a good varroa measure too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[itma]

... I used Ts conversion kits for the frames.

The bees never went below the original frame bottom bar and I wish I had just left the frames as nationals with 14*12 frames outside and dealt with the inevitable wild comb and drone brood.

Well done you for managing to attach the things to in-use frames!
(Which is not something I would subject a beginner to.)

However, as you discovered, it is a futile exercise.
Really, the frame converters are a waste of money.
Just accepting (and taking care with) the little bit of wild comb is the easy way.

 

[drstitson]

"To fit an Eke you would have to remove all the frames, put them somewhere else"

presumably you have spare national brood boxes?

if so then you just swap frames during a normal inspection.


or of course you add the eke when doing the traditional spring floor change.

 

[Marton]

Well done you for managing to attach the things to in-use frames!

(Which is not something I would subject a beginner to.)



However, as you discovered, it is a futile exercise.

Really, the frame converters are a waste of money.

Just accepting (and taking care with) the little bit of wild comb is the easy way.

Thank you, but I did have help from my mentor who hadn't done it before either.

We only learn by experience!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk