National Hive to 14x12 advice please

[waverider]

I have a strong colony in a standard National brood box with 2 supers. I wish to raise a new colony with an introduced queen either in a nucleus box or brood box. However all of my nucleus boxes and spare brood boxes are 14x12.

Therefore if I were to transfer brood frames from the National hive (standard brood) to the 14x12 there will be an issue with space and brace comb being formed.

What are my options? Should I place the empty14x12 brood on top of the present hive (standard national brood) with several dummy boards and frames with foundation. Once they have drawn the comb and brood is present in the 14x12 then remove and introduce queen etc....

 

[Pete D]

Maybe do an AS 3 by putting frames including the queen from the std into the 14x12 and putting it into the original position. Place the 3 std frames one sided but not against the edge. Let them draw out the 14 x 12 and
gradually work the std frames to the edge and remove and replace them.
I have used some std frames in a similar situation and the brace and wild comb wasnt too bad, the drew some drone out which helped in my varroa management.
In the original std brood (now queenless) remove all queen cells after 5 days and introduce new queen a day or 2 later
I am new too this so more advice will follow but it worked for me.
Pete D

 

[waverider]

Any other suggestions or are these feasible?

 

[Polyanwood]

If the comb is old and dark, then I would be minded to either do a shook swarm or a Bailey frame change. If there is deformed wing virus I would do the former.

If the colony is not that big, I would take a more conservative approach and just place the frames with brood and a couple with stores into the 14 x 12 on the original site and then fill up with the rest of the 14 x 12 frames and change them bit by bit by working the standard frames to the outside. Yes you will get a bit of brace comb, but that is not a disaster - you will just have to be a bit more careful how you handle the frames, especially if it gets hot.

 

[hallshoney]

national to 14x12

dont bother!

 

[waverider]

dont bother!

Constructive!

 

[hallshoney]

thank you.

 

[george]

Put the 14 12 under the National , remove the supers to concentrate their mind into drawing foundation . Also helps maintain hive temerature .
Once drawn and the queen is laying in it you can split it how you wish . Going by the weather so far this year you may have to give up any ideas of a honey crop being this late in the beekeeping year .
Hope thats a bit more helpful .
G

 

[oliver90owner]

Therefore if I were to transfer brood frames from the National hive (standard brood) to the 14x12 there will be an issue with space and brace comb being formed.

There would be an issue of wild comb, yes.

If you take precautions and avoid leaving space for any wild comb, there won't be any. Simple enough?

 

[Rosti]

I routinely use a std 14x8.5 in my 14x12's. There has never been a problem with brace, they build down from the base of the frame. You can even inspect if you are careful without losing the base comb. Look to migrate the frames to the edge once the colony is established and then replace. (I include a single 14x8.5 to allow some sacraficial comb a couple of times a season to reduce varroa loadings between OA and apiguard treatments)

 

[itma]

Another opinion that the wild comb beneath isn't a great problem.

If the frames with comb below are handled like top bar combs (keep the plane of the comb & frame strictly vertical*) then you should be fine.
If you hold the frame on an incline, the wild comb will flop and probably drop.
* Having lifted the frame out, let the frame 'hang' from your fingers holding one lug. Then use the bottom hand to make the top bar vertical and spin it as you wish. Its the way most folk are taught to handle frames - you just have to be a little more exact!

Interleaving 14x12's with standard deeps keeps the wild comb pretty straight below the frame.
Where it can get awkward is if you allow wild comb to brace between two (or more) short frames ...

T's 14x12 frame extensions are indeed a bit of a pain to fit to an in-use standard frame. (Thanks all the same, Queens59! )
The wild comb (and a bit of drone culling) seems a better way to go.
Or you could follow the suggestion of RAB & DrStitson to put some pre-cut blocks on the floor under the short frames to occupy the void space.

 

[Rob55]

I tried a bit of a DIY method yesterday and took out a shallow frame with stores only and removed the side bars and replaced with 14x12side bars, this left a 3.5" gap between the bottom bar and the comb. I then inserted new foundation from a super and tied it in with fine wire, and put it back into the hive. Just did it as a test, never read of anyone doing it before, if it works then great and if not I'm not too bothered, but I am hoping when the bees draw the new foundation below they will marry it into the existing comb above and the whole thing will become fairly strong.

I'll prob get flamed for this or told it was a complete waste of time, but hey, worth a go in my opinion. Gives me one less frame with wild comb beneath, and saves a full frame of stores and pollen for the bees.

Pics:

 

[itma]

I tried a bit of a DIY method yesterday and took out a shallow frame with stores only and removed the side bars and replaced with 14x12side bars... I then inserted new foundation from a super and tied it in with fine wire, and put it back into the hive. ...

Looks good!

Proper 14x12 frames have the wider topbars, and so, spotting the fractionally thinner ones, you can tell at a glance which ones to be more than usually gentle with!


// The wider topbars don't get wild comb on the sides (1 proper beespace between 14x12 hoffmans). Folk with standard national broods should try SN5s (with the wide topbar) rather than SN4s ...

 

[John R]

The Frankenstein of the bee world - keen to see how you get on and hope it works