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[BKF Admin]

I think it's pot luck if you breed in a dominant aggresive gene when mating any bee's.

Last year I looked after a friends apiary for 4 weeks who had an F1 Italian strain from a New Zealand queen,the bees would follow at least 200 yards(2 football pitch lengths) and try to attack even when you went into a wooded area.

When driving the car to the apiary they would meet you 50 yards away and start to attack your windscreen !!

When you did manage to get the roof off the hives they would boil out of the entrance at you.

 

[Norton]

The theme of Carniolian F1's brings us to the subject of the AMM produced in Greece and distributed by Bickerstaffes. Anyone that crosses AMM with Carniolians, or vice versa, needs to seriously think again about their actions! These crosses produce very aggressive bees.
Norton.

 

[hedgerow pete]

sorry admin but when your friend came back of holidays the hives might of stopped smouldering by then, i have a can of fly spray at my shed and when i walk away i take it with me any bee that follows past a certain point gets sprayed i can not afford to have followers where i am let alone aggresive bee's
yes i do prefere a more firmer bee than most and would gladly except the problems that come with them but sorry when i hit the 30yard mark the viel comes off and any thing trying to sting gets squirted with fly spray

 

[Poly Hive]

I know where the worst hive I have ever had the misfortune to know came from.

Supposedly pure bred but......... vicious.

And deff not AMM either.

PH

 

[BKF Admin]

He did ask me if I would look after them again for a month about a fortnight ago.

As he said he had not re-queened I found myself busy.

I even offered him 2 free local queens of mine but he seems happy to carry on as is...

 

[hedgerow pete]

what realy bugs me is not the bad behavour of the bees , its the fact that some thinks it exceptable

 

[BKF Admin]

what realy bugs me is not the bad behavour of the bees , its the fact that some thinks it exceptable

Last year he had the local group of Beekeeping Ass' members arrive one sunday afternoon,about 20 people.

2 people came interested in starting up,they both went away with at least a dozen stings each and nobody raised the issue.

I think its one of the main reasons I have turned to breeding calm local bees.

 

[JCBrum]

Last year he had the local group of Beekeeping Ass' members

Hmmm, ....... sounds like he is the Beekeeping Ass ....... ! or a pain in the A**.

 

[Hawklord]

what realy bugs me is not the bad behavour of the bees , its the fact that some thinks it exceptable

That's because beginners (self included) don't have the experience to say what's good and what's bad. I would think that Association hives have been bred from the same stock so there will be no variety in behaviour.

What characteristics should bees possess, and how many times does a queen tick all the relevant boxes?

 

[Stiffy]

I certainly wouldn’t want nasty bees and the consensus of opinion from replies is that Carnolians will produce aggressive bees when crossed (excuse pun).
I have one hive that has a locally mated carnolian/cross queen and all seems quiet for now, is it likely this hives temperament will change next year?

In that case how do people manage; re-queen or introduce a new import each time they produce a nuc or manage their hive?
Cheers
Stiffy

 

[Norton]

Unfortunately it seems that whatever other bee is crossed with Carniolians brings about an increased aggressivety. The most aggressive ones are hybrids between carnica and iberica (a sub-variety of AMM) they are extremely aggressive, even though on their own both races can be very docile. Brother Adam tried for years to get good crosses with Carniolian stock but was not successful. The other BIG problem with carnica is the well developed swarming instinct.
Best regards
Norton.

 

[oliver90owner]

how do people manage

A few of the options.

Several or many hives: one has the choice of which queens to breed from, which queens to keep (when in lay) etc etc. Probably able to set aside colonies for queen rearing (and at least the average yield per colony is not affected quite as much as others with fewer colonies).

Few colonies: one does not have the same oportunity as above, so choices are more limited, the fewer the number, the more one's choice is limited. If you are wanting to maximise honey crop, even one hive being split for queens and continually 'messed about' may reduce the potential crop quite a bit. especially if it is strengthened from those other few colonies.

One colony, artificially swarmed, one might have the choice of old queen or new queen. With one colony and supercedure, no choice in the matter. Depends on the time of year (unless one accepts imported stock), but now the choice is buy in, or wait and see. Dependent on location of hive, the 'wait and see' route might create problems.

I pick my best queen(s) and hopefully get a few nice offspring. Doesn't always work. if not well temperered etc, despatch colony to a site away from people then decide on, and take, appropriate action.

Regards, RAB

 

[rae]

That's because beginners (self included) don't have the experience to say what's good and what's bad.

Bees following you for 200 yards sounds bad! As a beginner....can I ask how often this happens? Do bees go psycho on a regular basis, or is it something that happens occasionally and you just need to deal with it?

 

[mikethebee]

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[oliver90owner]

rae,

Bees following you for 200 yards sounds bad!

I have a site close to a farm where a bee farmer keeps an out-apiary. I do not expect any swarms from that area to be nice and gentle. We used to walk past some of his colonies at a local farm and they were evil tempered, especially if inspected shortly beforehand.

I have one colony that is a bit like the header line. She is only still there because I have not raised a suitable queen for replacement - yet. Doesn't particularly bother me as my first colonies were followers and not particularly good tempered (I didn't know what a docile colony was like at that stage - not until my first collected-swarm turned out to be pussy-cats compared with those starter colonies). That colony most definitely would NOT be housed in my garden!!!

Do bees go psycho on a regular basis

That colony is 'psycho'. I suit-up before going anywhere near it. The funny thing is, though, although they 'bomb', they have not yet stung while doing it. They will, given time and opportunity, I can be sure.

Regarding going tetchy on a regular basis - yes, they can do. Time of year, honey flow stopping, robbing, rough handling, hive siting, etc can make them ill tempered at times.

Ymmv.

Regards, RAB

 

[Geoff]

I was given a colony that followed for 200 yards. I was as gentle as possible but they stll poured off the combs when they were being examined. It was like watching thousands of kamikaze pilots coming to get you. I was trying to find the unmarked queen. However the cloud of bees jumping on me was just a diversion - I can stand bombing bees, I just keep my face away from the veil.
The diversion was that while i was distracted by the bombing bees others were burrowing under my cuffs and within 20 seconds of opening the hive were in my veil. I retreated twice before I got the rather hurried inspection done, failing to find the queen.
Shortly after they swarmed and flew off towards the wood. Installed a new queen last thursday. If she survives then she should solve the problem and it is worth the £18. if not then I have a spare hive ready for spring.
The best colony i have is a small cast that turned up in my garden. They are now in a commercial brood box. The queen is very fertile and the bees stay on the comb when being inspected. I want to try breeding from her next year. Unfortunately i haven't been able to see the queen yet. She hides as soon as the hive is open, so i need to mark her in spring. Another nice hive is a swarm that i collected. Some people round here have lost some very nice tempered bees. The nice bees are going on to my private allottment where they can pollinate my strawberries and raspberries. I wonder if i can persuade them to visit my new polytunnel?
In my garden i have two colonies from Mikethebee and they are very well behaved. Great if you like watching bees close up without a veil. i can mow and strim round the hives without suiting up. Last year I did have one lot that were second generation and they were not bad. Not quite as good as the original but the slight tetchiness only surfaced when the brood box was opened and it was a lot less than at my association apiary.

 

[rae]

Regarding going tetchy on a regular basis - yes, they can do. Time of year, honey flow stopping, robbing, rough handling, hive siting, etc can make them ill tempered at times.

Thanks for that. I've noticed that ours are more grumpy after fighting wasps, but you can generally sit next to both the hives for ages (with no suit) watching them flying. If you sit in front of the hives a few will come out and fly round you, but that's not unreasonable. At least we are starting off knowing what a good colony is like!

 

[Stiffy]

Unfortunately it seems that whatever other bee is crossed with Carniolians brings about an increased aggressively. The most aggressive ones are hybrids between carnica and iberica (a sub-variety of AMM) they are extremely aggressive, even though on their own both races can be very docile. Brother Adam tried for years to get good crosses with Carniolian stock but was not successful. The other BIG problem with carnica is the well developed swarming instinct.
Best regards
Norton.

I think theres a genetics PHD project here for someone to look into why relatively quiet bees once bred from can turn into monsters. I am not geneticist but find it strange that a species can turn from a single mix of closely related genes. Out of interest are the Carniolian strain very closely related?

I think I will be introducing new queens into my Carniolian hives early next year, providing of course as a newbie I manage to winter my colonies.

 

[OXFORDBEE]

Stiffy,

Do you mean this sort of thing? ....http://lis.epfl.ch/~markus/References/Breed04.pdf

 

[Poly Hive]

Not attempting to beat the drum here but with all this anecdotal evidence keeping bees in urban sites is a great ida?

PH