More lessons learned

[JonnyPicklechin]

Had a report of a swarm from Mother In law whilst out on Sunday...

Was so confident that I has all hives understood and confirmed as "known" that i was shocked. Couldn't figure out which one. Discovered today the one was what I thought was without a queen and I had destroyed all QCc ready for a combine (hive 1). Had left over a week...go into there to find fresh capped brood, 5 queen cells...big lesson.

Destroyed all cells and went for combine with neighbouring hive (hive 2).

Hive 2 had been subject to a version 1 Snelgrove. But reckon they had been superceding HM as there is about 80% drone brood. Whatever, its got a lot of bees but think I may have "overcooked" the top Snelgrove BB as once the bees had emerged and were navigated below using the board, the house bees could only add stores. In finally introducing this top BB back down below to the "below hive" I put it below the below BB box (which at that time had a lower brood count, she he had clearly dropped to low lay before this new phase of drones) and the bees did not move these stores up to the super. So now I have a low brood count, mostly drone. Today I found the queen and dispatched her.

I then decided to put H1 (I believe its swarmed but dont think there is a queen) and H2 together (no queen now, drone brood, standard frames filled with nectar and pollen) and try and arrange the 2 brood boxes so I could put all that nectar and pollen store to the edges and try and arrange lots of lay space.

Thats all done. Now I know the hive 2 was queenless because I culled her. But I dont know for 100% whether Hive 1 did actually swarm and or whether there is virgin running around. My gut tells me that it has swarmed and the VQ had not emerged yet but need to be sure. I want to introduce a new bought BF Q and restart the lineage you see...She is waiting in a NUC.

Should I wait for a few days and see if they start building QCs to indicate they are queenless? In which case I can bring the new bucky Q in and assume they will tear down cells once they go through the cage acceptance?

Finding a virgin in such a big hive seems like a thankless task. Their mongrel lineage makes them unpleasant so would rather not....and especially since the odds are that there is no queen.

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Looks like I need to simplify the ask:

Since from this combine I know one half was definitely queenless and one half was suspected swarm (so no laying queen and no VQ as QCs were removed) is my only option to observe QC activity to be sure?

If QCs made post combine then probably they are queenless and I can introduce the new queen?

If no Qcs then I need to wait for a new mated and laying queen?

All the while check for eggs in case the queen from the suspected swarming hive did in fact not abscond...

Only other option is to do the shake into BB with QX above just two brood frames with all others above, to locate possible queen?

 

[eltalia]

Looks like I need to simplify the ask:

... or simplfy the task. I certainly cannot follow your thoughts.

As the subjects of both are antsy bees - queenright state unknown -
simply sift both through a QX then combine using stores only in
each section.
Give it a week whilst your mated queen is mailed out to then go in
and remove any queen and/or QCs found. Add queen a few hours
after, caged.
You can park up any brood frames in another box with bees adding
those back once your new queen is up and running.
Plan??

Bill

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

I just want to know if there is a queen in there so I dont lose the introduced one.

I'll go ahead and check for QCs as described.

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

I just want to know if there is a queen in there so I dont lose the introduced one.

I'll go ahead and check for QCs as described as I am not up for sifting.

 

[eltalia]

Welllll... sifting all bees will pretty much guarantee queenleessness.

The additional use of stores only has to clinch it as IF any queen is
present (any) brood has to come from only a queen laying since
the manipulation.
Given the account of success spotting queens and active cups
- so far - says relying on further attempts (only) may prove just as
futile?

Bill

 

[madasafish]

I just want to know if there is a queen in there so I dont lose the introduced one.

I'll go ahead and check for QCs as described as I am not up for sifting.

Test frame first before anything else.

 

[Murox]

Test frame first before anything else.

and KISS

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Remember there are eggs and larvae in there as this was a combine from a culled-queen-colony and suspected-swarm-colony ala the question.

 

[madasafish]

Remember there are eggs and larvae in there as this was a combine from a culled-queen-colony and suspected-swarm-colony ala the question.

I will quote you what you wrote:
H2 has only drone brood. So can be ignored.
No queen in H1 so no young larvae..and you destroyed all QCs...Sunday


For there to be a virgin you need to have seen a QC where the Q has emerged..No mention of it.. And if they had swarmed, they swarm when the first QC is capped... so you are at least now (Wed ) 4 days away from Sunday - and capped QCs and a swarm.. which sounds at least 4-5 days before then. So no young larvae left- all capped brood...




I may be wrong (I often am) - but that is my interpretation of what you described...

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

I will quote you what you wrote:
H2 has only drone brood. So can be ignored.
No queen in H1 so no young larvae..and you destroyed all QCs...Sunday


For there to be a virgin you need to have seen a QC where the Q has emerged..No mention of it.. And if they had swarmed, they swarm when the first QC is capped... so you are at least now (Wed ) 4 days away from Sunday - and capped QCs and a swarm.. which sounds at least 4-5 days before then. So no young larvae left- all capped brood...




I may be wrong (I often am) - but that is my interpretation of what you described...

Fair enough.. regarding H2 I dont know for sure she swarmed though queen sealed QCs was strong evidence (plus the mother in law report) and H1 is "all drone" but MAY have worker eggs.

But in thinking it through it may be there is no OB or eggs...

In H1 if the.leaving laying queen swarmed on Sunday is it likely she was laying eggs up to the moment of swarming? So they could have been making QCs with eggs or larvae given I destroyed the cells at the same time I culled her ie Sunday pms swarm, Tuesday am, cull and no more QCs?

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

 

[madasafish]

Fair enough.. regarding H2 I dont know for sure she swarmed though queen sealed QCs was strong evidence (plus the mother in law report) and H1 is "all drone" but MAY have worker eggs.

But in thinking it through it may be there is no OB or eggs...

In H1 if the.leaving laying queen swarmed on Sunday is it likely she was laying eggs up to the moment of swarming? So they could have been making QCs with eggs or larvae given I destroyed the cells at the same time I culled her ie Sunday pms swarm, Tuesday am, cull and no more QCs?

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

If they swarmed when the QCs were capped..yes possible.
You could find out by inspecting now and looking for QCs if none , then no virgin queen and hopelessly Q- - no larvae young enough for QCs to be made..

A test frame would answer it..