Modified Snelgrove II- both halves queenless! Advice please!

[beekake]

So, I performed a MS II on Sunday (3 d ago)...had terrible trouble finding the marked queen at the time (weather wasn't great and brood box was congested), but I was confident that I'd moved the queen to a new site, and left the foragers queenless on the original site.

I checked what should have been the queen right half today...two sealed queen cells, several more on the go, and on first inspection, no eggs or queen. On a closer look, I found a small patch of 2d old eggs, suggesting she had been there since I split the colony. The bees were doing the bum-shaking dance that accompanies being queenless.

In the queenless half, as I expected...queen cells being built in the two frames of open brood left behind, no eggs, no queen, bum-shaking bees.

The colony was going great before they got a bit swarmy, and I'm not now sure what to do. Wally Shaw's guide doesn't cover what to do when you lose the queen! I'll check again at the weekend, just in case I've missed the queen but, assuming she's left (unlikely?) or been mortally wounded in the split, what would you do?

Thanks for any advice...I've gone for the MS II this year after a low rate of success with pagden last year.

Beekake

 

[enrico]

You think you have the queen in one of the splits. So leave one queen cell and either find and remove the queen or let them get on with it.
In the other half they are building queen cells. Let them get on with that too.
Remove all but one in a few days time.
That's what I would do anyway!
E

 

[beekake]

No, I think the queen is gone (based on both splits building queen cells) and my singular failure to spot the marked queen after going through the frames 4 or so times! The only eggs I've seen are a couple of days old... no fresh laid eggs. i would like the queen to be in one half, but I want to plan for the fact that she has gone.

 

[enrico]

Got confused. Did the split three days ago but have two day old eggs.....

 

[beekake]

Yes, a very small patch of 2d old eggs (almost lying on their side) but absolutely no fresh eggs (ie standing on end) and bees frantically building QCs. They are supposed to be tearing them down if the queen is there, right ? (As per wally
Shaw method). Anyway, I will check again at the weekend. maybe the queen is there after all, but has just stopped laying for a bit.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I know this doesn't help you much but why are you going into the splits so early?
In your original brood box you should have all the brood minus two frames, the queen and the queen cells. Of course you will find queen cells there, that's what made you split them, Wally says to leave them alone for 9 days
In your AS you will find emergency cells being made but in nine days you will be back to take them down. What you found is what should be there.

 

[beekake]

What was I checking so early? Because I wasn't 100% sure that the queen had been transferred away from the AS (in my original post, I said I couldn't find the queen, although I was 'confident'). So today, as I was in the apiary, I thought I'd take a quick look to make sure (reasoning that she'd be easier to find now that all the flying bees had gone back to the AS)...I was expecting to look at a couple of frames, see fresh laid eggs, then close up. But because I didn't see fresh eggs and therefore thought that maybe the queen was with the AS, I checked the other half just in case with a view to moving the queen if I found her. (But I didn't and the AS was as expected). It was only when I went through the split again and looked really really hard that I found a very small patch of old eggs, but I still couldn't find the queen (marked, normally seen on every inspection).

Why am I so bothered? Because if the queen had indeed remained with the AS, I was worried about losing a swarm. It happened a couple of times to me last year and it was quite troublesome, so i am super keen to get my swarm control measures right this year! So it seemed safer to try and find her than worry about the 9 day rule.

 

[Erichalfbee]

It wasn't a criticism
It's impossible to transfer the queen into the AS using wally's method. Once the new box is set up you move two frames of young brood into it without any adhering bees.

 

[beekake]

Yes, ideally. But for various reasons (you know how it is sometimes) I wasn't able to use a new box on the original site and move brood back into it. I had to move the brood and queen to a new box. Hence the uncertainty! Anyway, I will see how it goes. Maybe the queen will show her face when I check next time!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes, ideally. But for various reasons (you know how it is sometimes) I wasn't able to use a new box on the original site and move brood back into it. I had to move the brood and queen to a new box. Hence the uncertainty! Anyway, I will see how it goes. Maybe the queen will show her face when I check next time!

Good luck. Let us know how it goes

 

[Charley]

I have also done a Wally Shaw Snelgrove 11 this year for the first time Timing was great as we were about to go away for a week.
After 9 days took down three nice QC's in the AS as instructed. Went to find Q in the old box. HaHa! totally elusive.
Have ended up putting a QC from another hive in and hope they will accept that.
Stopped the swarming though and after 9 days they had taken down all the QC's in the original hive which I found fascinating.
Next time I shall try to find the Q before taking down any QC's.

 

[thenovice]

the only thing that is worrying is that you have no fresh eggs. in MSII you move the colony with the queen and the QC to a new site. Hence the QCs in your broodbox. as there are no flying bees, there is no urge to swarm and by day 10 the colony should have knibbled the QCs. in the colony with the flying bees and no queen you will have emergency QC that you cull as they have been made by flying bees and are not well cared for. you then move the queen into this box to continue what she did before but now with the flying bees that have the feeling they swarmed. your BB with freshly laid eggs will raise an emergency queen on the new location as you removed the queen.

So, what I would do in your case is have a look on day 10 in both colonies and see if you can find eggs in case you misjudged the age of the 2 day old eggs. if not, your queen is probably gone or is not laying anymore. if so, keep 1 QC or introduce one from a strong colony by means of a frame of eggs in the "queenright" colony and combine both colonies (no QC in the flying bee one). Keep an eye on them as they will be congested and not sure if the swarm fever will be gone. if you have left only 1 QC, you will have bought you time until they feel like swarming again.

 

[Erichalfbee]

*****
Post in wrong place

 

[beekake]

So, I checked today and it was as I thought ... the queen has gone... no sign of her anywhere and both halves of the split have made plenty of emergency queen cells. I don't have any queens in reserve. So I'm in two minds what to do...leave both to it and see which queen is best before recombining in a month or so. Or recombine now and maintain the strength of the colony . Seeing as Wally's advice is that emergency queens will be better raised by the parent colony, i might move over a frame to the AS rather than risk a queen raised by flying, not nurse, bees.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Seeing as Wally's advice is that emergency queens will be better raised by the parent colony, i might move over a frame to the AS rather than risk a queen raised by flying, not nurse, bees.

Now that is a very good idea. Give them a nice big sealed cell

 

[Magwat]

I assisted a mentee with a modified snelgrove II a couple of weeks ago just before we had that spell of really cold wind for days on end. When we went back after 9 days the queen could not be found and there were a large number of QCs, many capped, on the bottoms of the frames. I concluded that because of the weather, which really hadn't been foraging conditions, insufficient flying bees had left the hive and returned to the original site and that too many with the urge to swarm had remained with the queen and they had swarmed from the new site.
I've used the method many times over the last couple of years and this is the first time it has failed.

 

[birdsandbees]

I've had the same situation, my favourite queen gone!
at least I have managed to raise a few Daughter from her before she bogged off!

I don't know what it is with swarming this year, I've had another hive that was made queenless after she failed which I then used to raise the said Daughters above (had been adding frames of brood as I thought they were already Q- so thought why not)
anyway, after all Q cells on the added bar were capped I caged them and released the first one that hatched into the hive and moved the other cells into mating nucs.
stupid bees swarmed with the virgin queen! luckily I had spares so will try again.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I assisted a mentee with a modified snelgrove II a couple of weeks ago just before we had that spell of really cold wind for days on end. When we went back after 9 days the queen could not be found and there were a large number of QCs, many capped, on the bottoms of the frames. I concluded that because of the weather, which really hadn't been foraging conditions, insufficient flying bees had left the hive and returned to the original site and that too many with the urge to swarm had remained with the queen and they had swarmed from the new site.
I've used the method many times over the last couple of years and this is the first time it has failed.

This is where any system to split flying bees from the queen will fail. Better to nuc the queen if the weather is going to be pants for days on end

 

[beekake]

Well, this snelgrove malarkey is just not working out for me! I had split another colony a week before the troublesome one featured in this post, and it was all going to the book. I had moved the queen back home after taking down the emergency QCs and she was back laying again like a trooper. Four days after moving her back, a couple of QCs, which I took down. This week (11 days after moving her back)...8 sealed QCs on one frame, everything else normal including 3 frames that were completely laid up with fresh eggs! I couldn't find her though, but since I've got a few mating nucs on the go (with her daughters in), I decided to take down the QCs and hope for the best...with the back up of a new queen if she has hopped it!