Mixed frame types in brood box

[Sleeches]

Morning

I have just taken delivery of a 6-frame nuc which looks in good shape. The nuc frames are standard national frames with plastic spacers, but I have Hoffman frames in the brood box. The spacing looks awkward, with the Hoffman frames closer together than the standard ones, and with 6 standard, 5 Hoffman and a dummy board in there there is still some wiggle room. The brood box has smooth metal runners.

Should I put Hoffman spacers on the nuc frames or can you put normal spacers on the Hoffman frames? Or just leave it?

Thanks

 

[Finman]

.
When you see that that they have different gap, then you are able to set them with same gap. When you transfer hives from field to field, then spacers are needed. On your back yard they are not necessary.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Morning

I have just taken delivery of a 6-frame nuc which looks in good shape. The nuc frames are standard national frames with plastic spacers, but I have Hoffman frames in the brood box. The spacing looks awkward, with the Hoffman frames closer together than the standard ones, and with 6 standard, 5 Hoffman and a dummy board in there there is still some wiggle room. The brood box has smooth metal runners.

Should I put Hoffman spacers on the nuc frames or can you put normal spacers on the Hoffman frames? Or just leave it?

Thanks

You have a choice - either put hoffman converters on the DN1 frames or, as I do, just put plastic frame spacers on the Hoffmans next to the DN1's until you can work the frames out over the season

 

[enrico]

I put plastic spacers on all frames and then it doesn't matter which you use! Be interested to know why Hoffman spacing is different from plastic spacer spacing though!
E

 

[Sleeches]

I put plastic spacers on all frames and then it doesn't matter which you use! Be interested to know why Hoffman spacing is different from plastic spacer spacing though!
E

Thanks - will stick spacers on the Hoffmans to get them evenly spaced. Seems like the hoffmans are a few mm narrower, plus where hoffman meets standard they do not line up well.

 

[itma]

Morning

I have just taken delivery of a 6-frame nuc which looks in good shape. The nuc frames are standard national frames with plastic spacers, but I have Hoffman frames in the brood box. The spacing looks awkward, with the Hoffman frames closer together than the standard ones, and with 6 standard, 5 Hoffman and a dummy board in there there is still some wiggle room. The brood box has smooth metal runners.

Should I put Hoffman spacers on the nuc frames or can you put normal spacers on the Hoffman frames? Or just leave it?

Thanks

"Standard" for brood boxes should be hoffman frames.

I really don't like either bar-end spacers or mixed spacing in a brood box.
However, closing up the spacing with hoffman converter clips on the in-use frames isn't going to make life easier for the bees.
Hence I'd suggest just living with it until you can 'work' those frames out of use. BUT do see my later comments on adjacent frames with different spacers.

Hoffman (standard national brood depth) frames are called DN4 (or DN5 with the optional wider topbar). I'm presuming that what you are calling 'standard' are the cheaper plain DN1 type.

With 11 frames and a dummy board there should be some empty space beyond the dummy - so you can start your inspections by easily removing the dummy.
At the end of inspection, replace the dummy and snug it and the frames tight together.

However, you shouldn't be filling the box with 5 frames of foundation at once.
You will get the new frames drawn better (quicker, more evenly and more completely) if you just give them one foundation frame at a time, and place it between those frames with brood and those that have only stores. Use the dummy board to 'bookend' the small group of frames.
Wax-making (comb drawing) needs heat (and fuel) so I reckon its particularly good to insulate an expanding nuc. In a poly hive that could be just putting a binbag (full of insulation eg scrunched up newspaper) in the void beyond the dummy board. In a wooden hive, additionally closing coverboard holes and insulating between it and the roof will be beneficial. Building insulation foam board (Celotex, Kingspa, Xtratherm, Recticel, etc) provides the best insulation.

Which brings us to the problem of what happens when a hoffman frame is fitted next to an end-spacer frame - the frame/frame spacing will be much too close!
What you do about it probably depends on whether you can get more end-spacers or some hoffman converter clips most easily.
If its end spacers (sigh) then you'll need to fit them to hoffman frames next to a frame with end-spacers only.
Much better would be to fit (additional) hoffman converters to those end-spacer frames that are next to a real hoffman, so that you can start establishing proper hoffman spacing.

Sussex? Was the nuc from Paynes? They show end-spacers in their nuc advertising photos. It is really not a helpful practice, saving pennies but causing difficulties.

 

[itma]

Thanks - will stick spacers on the Hoffmans to get them evenly spaced. Seems like the hoffmans are a few mm narrower, plus where hoffman meets standard they do not line up well.

The difference is an awkward anachronism.

See my comments above about adjacent frames with different spacing types.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Which brings us to the problem of what happens when a hoffman frame is fitted next to an end-spacer frame - the frame/frame spacing will be much too close!
What you do about it probably depends on whether you can get more end-spacers or some hoffman converter clips most easily.
If its end spacers (sigh) then you'll need to fit them to hoffman frames next to a frame with end-spacers only.
Much better would be to fit (additional) hoffman converters to those end-spacer frames that are next to a real hoffman, so that you can start establishg proper hoffman spacing.

What I said (with a few less words ) pointless fitting plastic spacers to all the Hoffmans just to ensure the symmetry of the box, bees will live witrect Hoffman h the lsight difference in spacing on the few frames and you can gradually work out the DN1's thus eventually having a hive with all the correct Hoffman spacing. I've had to do this with countless hives over the last few years (seems to be an obsession with using DN1's around here) and it has never caused an issue with the bees.

 

[YorkshireBees]

"Standard" for brood boxes should be hoffman frames.

A bee farmer I know told me that using Hoffman spacing causes the colony to raise stunted drones!

I have tried using DN4 and tbh I prefer DN1 with plastic spacers for my Brood boxes. The bees seem to glue the DN4 frames together more!

I don't generally move hives so have no problem with the DN1's swinging and at the end of the day they are cheaper!

 

[itma]

A bee farmer I know told me that using Hoffman spacing causes the colony to raise stunted drones!

I have tried using DN4 and tbh I prefer DN1 with plastic spacers for my Brood boxes. ...
... and at the end of the day they are cheaper!

Yes, you'll hear all sorts of odd ideas from all sorts of beekeepers!

Yorkshire, eh? The "deep pockets, short arms" thing seems to have some validity. Takes a little bit of the pressure off us Aberdonians!

 

[enrico]

I am surprised you are so for Hoffmann. Personally I hate them and always use spacers. I would advise beginners to do the same. You kill less bees by pushing plastic spacers together than you do with hoffman's. They are easier to clean, they are cheaper to buy, the spacers help you to grip the frame. Personal taste but what I am trying to say is that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with using plastic spacers. Up to the individual.
E

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I am surprised you are so for Hoffmann. Personally I hate them and always use spacers. I would advise beginners to do the same.

And I would advise my beginners to avoid spacers like the plague - fiddly, always falling off the end of the frame at the most inopportune moment. As you say, personal preference. I don't kill bees pushing together Hoffmans - in fact I find more get trapped between plastic spacers.

 

[Hivemaker.]

A bee farmer I know told me that using Hoffman spacing causes the colony to raise stunted drones!

Why would hoffman frame spacing cause this?

 

[YorkshireBees]

Why would hoffman frame spacing cause this?

He said in his experience the space between the combs is too little for full sized (length) drone comb and he said that the drones always end up smaller than with the slightly wider spacing of plastic spacers.

 

[REDWOOD]

I hate spacers, If hoffmanns were never invented I would do what BA did. Never had a problem with stunted drones.

 

[Hivemaker.]

He said in his experience the space between the combs is too little for full sized (length) drone comb and he said that the drones always end up smaller than with the slightly wider spacing of plastic spacers.

I see... i use hoffman spaced frames that are the same spacing as the plastic/metal end spacers, so no problems there.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

A bee farmer I know told me that using Hoffman spacing causes the colony to raise stunted drones!

I suppose he told you that you can catch AIDS from toilet seats as well

 

[Tom Bick]

I currently have four systems of frame spacing across my hives and each system works just as well as the other although I would say I am leaning towards eleven frame spacing with no dummy board. If my memory serves me right traditionally the narrow plastic or metal spacing is the traditional spacing for the national with eleven frames per box and we ended up with the narrower hoffman spacing as they were originally made for langstroth and when adapted for national the width stayed the same.

 

[YorkshireBees]

I suppose he told you that you can catch AIDS from toilet seats as well

Nope, can you!!!

Seriously though, I was just quoting what he said at a lecture.

As with everything I hear from other 'very experienced' beekeepers I decide myself whether it makes sense.

The main reason I don't use Hoffman spacing is that I don't like the way the bees propolise the frames together, having said that they fit into a 6 frame Poly Nuc a lot easier than with plastic spacers!!!!

 

[For want of a better word]

And I would advise my beginners to avoid spacers like the plague - fiddly, always falling off the end of the frame at the most inopportune moment. As you say, personal preference. I don't kill bees pushing together Hoffmans - in fact I find more get trapped between plastic spacers.

My inherited DN1s get used to make up dummy boards... all that 4mm correx from the (OMG) six pack farce are coming in useful!

std DN4 for me.... KISS!

Yeghes da