Mean green queen saga continues

[Tremyfro]

I note a great number of posts about swarming on this forum, so it is presumably very common.
Apart from having good space management and young queens, which I am sure bk's do, is a cause that the bee stock is very swarmy ? Possibly because swarm cells are used for AS and splits ?
Or does the swarming also affect the "well bred" bees as well ?

Is it better to use queens from superceedure cells? If you induce this within the hive? If you have bees that are not swarmy.
Wouldn't that eventually affect the gene selection?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Or does the swarming also affect the "well bred" bees as well ?

Of course it does. It's how the colony reproduces.
Some breeds are better at it than others. Carniolan bees like to make lots of bees and are renowned for being "swarmy"

 

[Hawklord]

I would consider a stock to be swarmy if it made lots of swarm cells and or built those cells before the queen filled at least 1 brood box. Swarming is what bees should do as part of their reproduction. I would see constant supercede as a genetic fault, good for the beekeeper but not for the survival of the bees.

 

[Tremyfro]

I have some Carniolans....last year they filled a 14x12 box plus the centre of a half brood. This year they filled a 14x12 box plus most of a national brood box on top......they showed no swarming tendencies ...but I induced some superceedure cells...which I used for nucs. I then split up the colony for making 5 nucs. 4 of which have recently been hived ...although 2 of them are dummied to 8 frames. So progressing well.
Of course, the virgins will have mated with local bees....so I am waiting to see if they have retained the gentle characteristics from the original queen.
Fortunately, I now have enough colonies to requeen if necessary...or to combine...if a colony shows any unpleasant characteristics.
I managed to get through this year...so far... without any swarming but next year may well be different as the present colonies mature. It will be very interesting comparing the management of vertical and horizontal colonies during swarming season.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have some Carniolans....last year they filled a 14x12 box plus the centre of a half brood. This year they filled a 14x12 box plus most of a national brood box on top......they showed no swarming tendencies ...but I induced some superceedure cells...

How did you induce supersedure cells?

 

[Tremyfro]

How did you induce supersedure cells?

I followed the procedure described by Robin Dartington...in his book....page 5 ...where he describes a long hive ...the equivalent of two 14x12 boxes. By spreading the brood laterally the colony raises a new queen under superceedure impulse but it still forms one unit during cell raising. As I understand it...which of course may be entirely wrong! ....the reducing of queen pheromone within the brood area induces superceedure. Rather than emergency cells..which are made when a nucleus is formed...well away from the colony...and subsequently lack the extra reserves that the full colony can use to produce well fed queens.
I feel there may be a thin line here....but I found a number of other references to superceedure cells being made by a colony when queen pheromone is reduced ...a queen being old or feeble...or lacking in some way.
My queen cells had the full colony to look after them...so hopefully...in time they will prove their worth.

 

[madasafish]

My definition of "swarmy" - more than 10QCs...

It's squish the queen time..

Some bees produce up to 30QCs..

 

[Hawklord]

I don't know why but 1 of my colony's superceded when I clipped both wings of a queen. The problem is they don't produce many queen cells when superceding.

 

[Tremyfro]

My definition of "swarmy" - more than 10QCs...

It's squish the queen time..

Some bees produce up to 30QCs..

Wow...I get antsy if I see more than two!

 

[bontbee]

I gave up counting last year after I got to 84 in one colony . They are a swarmy lot but they are such lovely, productive bees, I put up with it and just know I have to keep on top of their swarming urge. I think that goes against the grain - most beekeepers on here seem to select against "swarminess" but, to me, it's what bees have to do and I just get on with trying to con them that they've done what they have to do.

(I'm not a commercial beekeeper relying on bees for my livelihood...she adds hastily....)

 

[kevrhcfag]

Is it better to use queens from superceedure cells? If you induce this within the hive? If you have bees that are not swarmy.
Wouldn't that eventually affect the gene selection?

Other than food availability there is surely no difference between them in real terms. The virgin/s will still have 50% of her mothers / fathers genes whichever cell type is used. What that queen mates with will have a much greater effect on the new hive than anything else. Bees are driven like everything else on the planet by 2 basic instincts, survival and reproduction at some point the hive will want to swarm to meet that 2nd instinct.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I followed the procedure described by Robin Dartington...

Easier laterally
I'm afraid I"ve got quite lazy in this respect and I'm happy to buy new Buckie's from HM to replace half my queens every year.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Other than food availability there is surely no difference between them in real terms.

That's the whole point - a larva that has been doused with royal jelly from hatching is going to be better than one selected later - also a supersedure cell means that being in a Q+ colony there is a constant stream of very young nurse bees supplying better quality royal jelly

What that queen mates with will have a much greater effect on the new hive than anything else.

Depends - doesn't really matter how good or how many drones she mates with - if she is a poorly raised queen there's a chance she won't perform as well - her progeny may be good but how many will she produce and how long can she cary on for?

 

[Tremyfro]

Yes the Virgin mates...but with quite a few drones....15 seems to be the popular number. If this is so...then bees produced can only be 50% genes from the queen...and 50% genes from whichever drone supplied the sperm, at the most. So within that particular colony the overal dominance will be from the queen...not the drones. Although genes from one particular drone may be noticed if the trait is undesirable. Each drone can only affect approximately, 6% of the bees in the colony. Yet the queen affects 100% of the colony. It isn't only genes that affect a colony...weather, amount of forage, disturbance , environment etc. many things to take into account when diagnosing problem colonies.
I have bought several queens this season. It will be interesting to see how different the colonies will be within my Bee Yard. Compared to my experience with my first Carniolan colony....and subsequently with her daughters which will have mated with local drones.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

That's the whole point - a larva that has been doused with royal jelly from hatching is going to be better than one selected later - also a supersedure cell means that being in a Q+ colony there is a constant stream of very young nurse bees supplying better quality royal jelly.

Listen to JBM. Just as a simple datapoint, I am fooling around with grafting and this time managed (based on days) to graft a larva that was hours from hatching and two that were a day old. The former has made a great big fat QC and the others teeny ones (same mother). Not definitive but those first few days of 'royal jelly" v Royal Jelly do seem to be different.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Many years ago, I had Buckfasts from Brother Adam and Peter Donnovan. At the time I was impressed and sought to breed from them. It didn't work. Even the first generation was vicious. I put it down to the influence of the drones

Is it an AMM + Buckfast cross thing, as I read somewhere?

 

[Obee1]

Listen to JBM. Just as a simple datapoint, I am fooling around with grafting and this time managed (based on days) to graft a larva that was hours from hatcing and two that were a day old. The former has made a great big fat QC and the others teeny ones (same mother). Not definitive but those first few days of 'royal jelly" v Royal Jelly do seem to be different.

May well be a stupid question....I've not really looked into this subject as I prefer the easy route of buying in good quality queens. But if one grafts larvae could one at the same time add an extra dollop of royal jelly collected from other QC? Or does it need to be continually fed.

 

[Finman]

.
Don't try again to invent, why colony is evil. It is not a actually evil, does it? It is bee's basic characteristics. Reason is not dark areas, weather or gloves.. It just defends its nest.

Change the queen.... Only way.

 

[Cussword]

May well be a stupid question....I've not really looked into this subject as I prefer the easy route of buying in good quality queens. But if one grafts larvae could one at the same time add an extra dollop of royal jelly collected from other QC? Or does it need to be continually fed.

Ted Hooper used to prime his cells with diluted royal jelly prior to placing the larva in it.

So I've read��

 

[B+.]

Is it an AMM + Buckfast cross thing, as I read somewhere?

They were open mated ....so just the local mongrels