mating hives and heat loss

[user 6228]

been looking at mating hives and mini nucs ...

So heres a question:

If you make a mating nuc 1/2 size in height , depth and width.
Can you estimate: how thick should the walls be on the mating hive compared to the full size hive, so that each bee is as warm in the mating nuc as it would be in the full size hive?

 

[Mike a]

Depends what you want to make the hive out of and how many bees you are thinking of using?

Probably easier to design the hive on paper using ply for the size and number of frames you want then cover the outside with something like foil covered 25mm kingspan.

Wooden hives are not good at keeping the heat in, most were designed back in the early 1900-1920 era probably long before they understood the importance of brood nest temperatures.

 

[user 6228]

Depends what you want to make the hive out of and how many bees you are thinking of using?

Probably easier to design the hive on paper using ply for the size and number of frames you want then cover the outside with something like foil covered 25mm kingspan.

Wooden hives are not good at keeping the heat in, most were designed back in the early 1900-1920 era probably long before they understood the importance of brood nest temperatures.

I asked this question because the mating nucs on sale seem to be either trying to chill the queen or break the laws of physics

For the same density of bees,If you half the dimensions you need to double the thickness of the material to keep it as warm. (ratio of surface area to volume)

However all of the mating hives being sold seem to either have the the same thickness or thinner...

 

[Hivemaker.]

However all of the mating hives being sold seem to either have the the same thickness or thinner...

I am slowly phasing out all of my poly nucs for the far superior wooden ones i use, and over winter...this past winter with no losses,but did lose four in poly nucs.

 

[Finman]

I am slowly phasing out all of my poly nucs for the far superior wooden ones i use, and over winter...this past winter with no losses,but did lose four in poly nucs.

Out how many?

.

 

[Finman]

.
I have cut polyboxes in 3 pieces and I have made 3-frame mating nucs.
They are splended for their insulating features. When queen starts to lay, I add a frame of emerging bees and nucs will be soon full of brood.

I can move normal frames on and off.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Out how many?
.

Poly nucs (kielers) fourteen, four losses. Wooden fifty nine,no losses.

 

[user 6228]

I am slowly phasing out all of my poly nucs for the far superior wooden ones i use, and over winter...this past winter with no losses,but did lose four in poly nucs.

My observations are independent of the material.

For a half sized (1/2L 1/2W 1/2D) for the same bee density (bee per unit volume, level of crowding etc)

you will need double the wood thickness for the same warmth as a full size wooden hive.

To retain the thermal performance of 19mm cedar full hive you need 38mm cedar in the minature version. To retain the performance of 34mm poly you need 68mm poly for the minature version.

The poly Apidea thornes are selling seem to be 20mm thick from their photographs. The poly kieler from modern beekeeping appear to be 20mm thick as well.

The cedar designs I have seen on the net only use 19mm cedar.

 

[Black Comb]

So the conclusion is that in the smaller units they will eat relatively more then a full hive to maintain their temperature?

 

[user 6228]

So the conclusion is that in the smaller units they will eat relatively more then a full hive to maintain their temperature?

Unless the maker or beekeeper adds more material, they need produce more heat(eat more per bee) or go into cluster for a greater range of temperature.

 

[Little John]

Wooden hives are not good at keeping the heat in, most were designed back in the early 1900-1920 era probably long before they understood the importance of brood nest temperatures.

But is it not strange that wooden mating NUCs have been producing mated queens and their brood quite adequately during the last hundred years ?

Maybe the old-timers recognised that mating only takes place during warm periods, where heat retention is of far less importance than during the winter months (say) ?

LJ

 

[user 6228]

But is it not strange that wooden mating NUCs have been producing mated queens and their brood quite adequately during the last hundred years ?

Maybe the old-timers recognised that mating only takes place during warm periods, where heat retention is of far less importance than during the winter months (say) ?

LJ

If one looks at the few really good studies, reduced heat loss does not affect strong. large very healthy colonies, but the reduced loss enables less advantaged colonies to survive and build up faster.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Unless the maker or beekeeper adds more material, they need produce more heat(eat more per bee) or go into cluster for a greater range of temperature.

During winter 4 way boxes, crownboard, about eight to ten inches of cedar shavings above that,topped by an insulated roof. Below eighteen inches deep of cedar filled with bees. In summer, just a clear cover board and insulated roof,plus frequent shake outs of bees and brood removal to keep them weak.

 

[Mike a]

But is it not strange that wooden mating NUCs have been producing mated queens and their brood quite adequately during the last hundred years ?
LJ

Wood was probably the only material of choice when hives were first made back in the early 1900's. Obviously they didn't have access to the same materials we have today or understood fully the thermal properties of various materials.

I'm sure even if you stuck a colony in a metal box with giant cooling fins or in a fridge they would survive Winter just fine provided they had enough stores to see them through. All they need is enough bees to keep the cluster warm in rotation and keep the queen safe and warm and all of them well feed and they'd be fine.

The point I was trying to make was:

Better the insulation the less heat energy they need to produce to keep warm = less stores consumed. Assuming its a suitable sized hive.

 

[BeeJayBee]

During winter 4 way boxes, crownboard, about eight to ten inches of cedar shavings above that,topped by an insulated roof. Below eighteen inches deep of cedar filled with bees. In summer, just a clear cover board and insulated roof,plus frequent shake outs of bees and brood removal to keep them weak. ...

It's taken me a while to find it again, but there's a picture of this here http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=288543&postcount=54

Insulation is obviously very important.

 

[Little John]

Wood was probably the only material of choice when hives were first made back in the early 1900's. Obviously they didn't have access to the same materials we have today or understood fully the thermal properties of various materials.

I'm sure even if you stuck a colony in a metal box with giant cooling fins or in a fridge they would survive Winter just fine provided they had enough stores to see them through. All they need is enough bees to keep the cluster warm in rotation and keep the queen safe and warm and all of them well feed and they'd be fine.

The point I was trying to make was:

Better the insulation the less heat energy they need to produce to keep warm = less stores consumed. Assuming its a suitable sized hive.

Hang on - someone's moved the goalposts ...

Stores, hives ? The OP was about mating NUCs, not colonies in hives during winter.

Mating takes place when daytime ambient temperatures might be, what ?, mid 80's F. Brood temperatures are typically around early 90's F. That does not present a very demanding heat generation requirement, nor much of an insulation requirement. Wood, I would suggest, is therefore a perfectly adequate material to use for the construction of mating NUCs.

Indeed, it's not unknown for swarms to set up home on tree branches during an English summer - so for them even boxes made from wood are considered unnecessary - at that time of year.

LJ

 

[beebreeder]

Doesn't. Matter what it's made of the badgers ripped them of their stand and ate all but the poly and top bars, bees eaten aswell.

 

[itma]

...
Insulation is obviously very important.

Someone posted on here that a pair of Apidea micro-nucs, with upper decks for more frames, fit snugly into a National brood 'deep' brood box. So a basic poly hive could help those wanting to overwinter a few spare queens.

 

[Little John]

Someone posted on here that a pair of Apidea micro-nucs, with upper decks for more frames, fit snugly into a National brood 'deep' brood box. So a basic poly hive could help those wanting to overwinter a few spare queens.

You'd need to get their entrances to coincide, of course ...

But you raise an important point - that in terms of construction materials - there is a world of difference between using mating-NUCs for their original purpose, and the more demanding application of employing them to over-winter mini-colonies.

LJ

 

[Finman]

Poly nucs (kielers) fourteen, four losses. Wooden fifty nine,no losses.

polynucs have different moisturesystem.
Wooden absorbs water and move it via wll.

A moist nuc catch easily nosema. Hive needs upper ventilation hole.
If you have solid floor, it needs too water arrangements compared to wooden box.
It takes time to learn.