Massive queen outside hive

[Delgirl]

Thanks both. Just pulled a couple of frames until I found it. old Queen was still trying to get back in so caged her and put her out of her misery as didn't want her to be successful and fight with new one. . There was worker bias last week but not a massive amount but I thought maybe due to bad weather and her taking a break. I could put some sealed and egg worker from my thriving long hive tomorrow perhaps?

 

[Delgirl]

If she opens them up she would be able to tell by the rest of the brood frames as to wether the old queen was a drone layer not just curiosity the frame does look classic DLQ material .
I would be looking at them asap unless the op had seen worker brood capped or otherwise .
Edit: if it was supersedure surely the old queen would still be present untill the new queen was laying?

I have also read that they may evict old queen to avoid conflict. Always so many scenarios it makes my head spin.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Thanks both. Just pulled a couple of frames until I found it. old Queen was still trying to get back in so caged her and put her out of her misery as didn't want her to be successful and fight with new one. . There was worker bias last week but not a massive amount but I thought maybe due to bad weather and her taking a break. I could put some sealed and egg worker from my thriving long hive tomorrow perhaps?

Sounds like supersedure the old queen winding down , most superseding queens don’t fight I would of left the old queen because if the new queen doesn’t come back from her mating flight the colony are pretty much doomed.

I have also read that they may evict old queen to avoid conflict. Always so many scenarios it makes my head spin.

 

[Delgirl]

Sounds like supersedure the old queen winding down , most superseding queens don’t fight I would of left the old queen because if the new queen doesn’t come back from her mating flight the colony are pretty much doomed.

May have been my bad but they weren't letting her back in so would probably have perished overnight anyway. As I say there are differing opinions on supercedure I have found (isn't there always in bee keeping) and didn't want to risk that lovely queen cell. I am happy to take it on the chin if it all fails. Another lesson learnt and long hive should provide some nice splits the rate they are going. Thanks again everyone for your invaluable advice. I think I will donate some sealed brood tomorrow anyway if pattern has deteriorated and low worker cell presence.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Well sounds like they were trying to remove her the old queen that is .
Let us know how it progresses.

Mark

May have been my bad but they weren't letting her back in so would probably have perished overnight anyway. As I say there are differing opinions on supercedure I have found (isn't there always in bee keeping) and didn't want to risk that lovely queen cell. I am happy to take it on the chin if it all fails. Another lesson learnt and long hive should provide some nice splits the rate they are going. Thanks again everyone for your invaluable advice. I think I will donate some sealed brood tomorrow anyway if pattern has deteriorated and low worker cell presence.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

if it was supersedure surely the old queen would still be present untill the new queen was laying?

only if it's a 'perfect supersedure' often it's 'imperfect' and they get rid of the queen before the new one is out

 

[pargyle]

If she opens them up she would be able to tell by the rest of the brood frames as to wether the old queen was a drone layer not just curiosity the frame does look classic DLQ material .
I would be looking at them asap unless the op had seen worker brood capped or otherwise .
Edit: if it was supersedure surely the old queen would still be present untill the new queen was laying?

Another 10 days to see what happens is not going to make any difference .. if they are superceding then best left to get on with it.

 

[Delgirl]

Another 10 days to see what happens is not going to make any difference .. if they are superceding then best left to get on with it.

OK. Will leave them alone then. Will post outcome.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hmmmm I hope I’m wrong but that doesn’t look good at all.

 

[Delgirl]

Hmmmm I hope I’m wrong but that doesn’t look good at all.
View attachment 36068

Oh no. What do you recommend?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well just look in 10 days and if it’s still there open it up.

 

[joebeewhisperer]

May have been my bad but they weren't letting her back in so would probably have perished overnight anyway. As I say there are differing opinions on supercedure I have found (isn't there always in bee keeping) and didn't want to risk that lovely queen cell. I am happy to take it on the chin if it all fails. Another lesson learnt and long hive should provide some nice splits the rate they are going. Thanks again everyone for your invaluable advice. I think I will donate some sealed brood tomorrow anyway if pattern has deteriorated and low worker cell presence.

While you end up propping bad with good, such is backyard beekeeping. Has more heart anyway. If I were putting in brood comb I would do it quickly/methodically and a maybe a couple frames over from the QC.

That QC is likely 4-5 days from emergence (though it is more difficult to judge pulling from older comb. Around here if weather is suitable for flights, ours usually begin laying on day 12-13 from emergence. I’d give it a minimum of 3 weeks after adding the brood. A bit longer might even be better. Hope this helps.

And the old queen was a goner. She did not get that wing-wear from flying. Don’t beat yourself up over that, it’s their way.

 

[Delgirl]

Well just look in 10 days and if it’s still there open it up.

While you end up propping bad with good, such is backyard beekeeping. Has more heart anyway. If I were putting in brood comb I would do it quickly/methodically and a maybe a couple frames over from the QC.

That QC is likely 4-5 days from emergence (though it is more difficult to judge pulling from older comb. Around here if weather is suitable for flights, ours usually begin laying on day 12-13 from emergence. I’d give it a minimum of 3 weeks after adding the brood. A bit longer might even be better. Hope this helps.

And the old queen was a goner. She did not get that wing-wear from flying. Don’t beat yourself up over that, it’s their way.

Thanks so much. Comforting and helpful. What stage brood donation best at this stage do you think? Sealed or open or a bit of both. I have left them to it today so far. Just to complicate matters new QC is on an MD super that I left on over winter with stores and I was waiting for them to go down to BB which has a mix of nice new comb and drawn in the centre. I was then going to swap out the old frames from the super. She is currently on third frame from left of back of hive.

 

[joebeewhisperer]

Thanks so much. Comforting and helpful. What stage brood donation best at this stage do you think? Sealed or open or a bit of both. I have left them to it today so far. Just to complicate matters new QC is on an MD super that I left on over winter with stores and I was waiting for them to go down to BB which has a mix of nice new comb and drawn in the centre. I was then going to swap out the old frames from the super. She is currently on third frame from left of back of hive.

I was telling an older neighbor last night that years ago I made the mistake (repeatedly) of donating open brood when trying to prop up weak colonies. I didn’t understand how many 10s of 1000s of trips are made into the cells to feed a frame of open brood. At this point I almost never move brood for this purpose. But if I do, I want dark capped brood, preferring a frame with babies chewing their way out. This brood generates some of its own heat, and a frame of it will represent 2-3 frames of nurses walking around in 2-3 days.

My general shot-in-the-arm for propping up the weakest (assuming my actions made them weak), is to shake adhering bees from frames of open brood (from donor) in front of a ramp (usually old plastic foundation) leading into the recipient hive. I try and make sure the queen is not on the frames shaken. The foragers fly home, and the nurses (who have no allegiance to a certain queen are universally accepted) walk in and begin helping in minutes, as soon as everyone settles.

 

[Ely]

Harsh life being an insect. Interesting seeing it in action though and getting photos of the supercedure

 

[Antipodes]

I was telling an older neighbor last night that years ago I made the mistake (repeatedly) of donating open brood when trying to prop up weak colonies. I didn’t understand how many 10s of 1000s of trips are made into the cells to feed a frame of open brood. At this point I almost never move brood for this purpose. But if I do, I want dark capped brood, preferring a frame with babies chewing their way out. This brood generates some of its own heat, and a frame of it will represent 2-3 frames of nurses walking around in 2-3 days.

My general shot-in-the-arm for propping up the weakest (assuming my actions made them weak), is to shake adhering bees from frames of open brood (from donor) in front of a ramp (usually old plastic foundation) leading into the recipient hive. I try and make sure the queen is not on the frames shaken. The foragers fly home, and the nurses (who have no allegiance to a certain queen are universally accepted) walk in and begin helping in minutes, as soon as everyone settles.

I think I read in an old American Beekeeping Journal advocating this method, that any bee under six days old gets accepted into another hive (could have been six days old or less...not sure now). I think it was in a journal from the 1800's.

 

[joebeewhisperer]

I think I read in an old American Beekeeping Journal advocating this method, that any bee under six days old gets accepted into another hive (could have been six days old or less...not sure now). I think it was in a journal from the 1800's.

As much as we like to innovate, most solid beek practices are probably at least 100 years old. Adjust for new(er) invasive pests/diseases and some older person figured it out and wrote it down before my grandparents were born.

I found an article from a farming paper published in Nashville TN in 1897 while researching family history. It was written by either my g-grandfather or gg-grandfather and sent in. I don't read or speak German, and they had emigrated from Switzerland in 1869, so more low-German I would imagine. But translating it online I seem to remember it pointing to a remedy for a sheep hoof malady. Hadn't thought of it in a long time, but it illustrates that people have been trying to pass on knowledge forever, to keep others from having to learn everything from scratch.

Your comments made me think of it. Thanks for bringing back a memory.