Mann Lake side bars?

[Fusion_power]

Lugs on Mann Lake topbars are not quite 1/2 inch. The frames I've seen are 7/16.

Bee space is a topic we could discuss for months. Some hives are built for bee space above the top bars. some are built so the top bars are level with the top of the box and the beespace is beneath the bottom bars. Figure out which you are purchasing and stay with that type to avoid problems with compatibility.

I'm making 11 1/4 deep frames with 1 1/4 inch end bars. This is a size and style that is not made by anyone. The frames are designed for a 5/8 inch deep rabbett and with a tapered lug so that the bee space is on top of the topbars. The lug is 1/2 inch thick at the point where the end bar attaches. This is a stronger design than is currently made by any of the major manufacturers.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Lugs on Mann Lake topbars are not quite 1/2 inch. The frames I've seen are 7/16.

Bee space is a topic we could discuss for months. Some hives are built for bee space above the top bars. some are built so the top bars are level with the top of the box and the beespace is beneath the bottom bars. Figure out which you are purchasing and stay with that type to avoid problems with compatibility.

Langstroths are top bee space, the space is above the top bars at the top of the box. The bottom of the frames should be flush with the bottom of the box.

The problem might be that, although spacing between frames from one company obviously works, mixing frames from more than one source could compromise the bee space - but I don't really see how, because surely they'd all be top bee space??

Has anybody ever had any issues caused by mixing frames from different suppliers?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

QUOTE=Fusion_power;533145] Some hives are built for bee space above the top bars. some are built so the top bars are level with the top of the box and the beespace is beneath the bottom bars. Figure out which you are purchasing and stay with that type to avoid problems with compatibility.
.[/QUOTE]

I can't see how the fact the hive is TBS or BBS has any relevance as it will be the depth of the rebate where the lugs sit which determines the beespace not the type/make of top bar you have.

Langstroths are top bee space, the space is above the top bars at the top of the box. The bottom of the frames should be flush with the bottom of the box.

The problem might be that, although spacing between frames from one company obviously works, mixing frames from more than one source could compromise the bee space - but I don't really see how, because surely they'd all be top bee space??

Has anybody ever had any issues caused by mixing frames from different suppliers?

Nope - I have Hoffman frames (so that would highlight any frame spacing issues) from big T's, Maisies a few from Pains and a bunch from China - and one hive I have has definitely got at least three different ones in there - no issue.
The only 'problem' I've encountered with mixing is that frame parts don't always mix and match very well as I fould out when I had top bars from one manufacturer and side bars from another. In some cases the fit was very loose and the others the side bars were prone to splitting as the tolerances were too tight.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Nope - I have Hoffman frames (so that would highlight any frame spacing issues) from big T's, Maisies a few from Pains and a bunch from China - and one hive I have has definitely got at least three different ones in there - no issue.
The only 'problem' I've encountered with mixing is that frame parts don't always mix and match very well as I fould out when I had top bars from one manufacturer and side bars from another. In some cases the fit was very loose and the others the side bars were prone to splitting as the tolerances were too tight.

I've mixed frames from Maisies, Thornes and Paynes plus another unknown, the only problem has come from the different widths used for Dadant and Jumbo Langstroth, which can be a bit irritating, but the depth of the frames has all been the same. They sit on the frame rests with beespace above the frame and the bottom of the frame level with the bottom of the brood box.

Mixing and matching frame parts from different suppliers doesn't ever seem to work, the side bars don't fit the top bars because the cutting pattern is slightly different.

 

[Fusion_power]

There was an article in Bee Culture about 15 years ago that detailed out major manufacturers methods of cutting frames and the boxes they fit in. It would be worth digging up a copy just to read about the various methods that have been used to make frames.

The rabbett at the top of the box can be 5/8 or 7/8 of an inch. 7/8 is intended to be used with metal strips which raise the height to 5/8. I've seen 7/8 used with frames with 1/2 inch lugs which just so happen to give 3/8 bee space above the frames. 5/8 inch rabbetts give correct bee space above the frames when the lug is 1/4 inch thick. This is a problem because 1/4 inch or even 5/16 inch lugs are not heavy enough to stand up to years of use. Drop a frame full of honey and you will find out fast just how weak these lugs can be. Two major manufacturers currently make frames with 7/16 thick lugs. This gives only 3/16 on top which will always be filled in by the bees if a cover is placed on top.

So what is the correct size and style lugs and what is the correct depth for the rabbett?

The rabbett should be 5/8 of an inch deep unless you are using the metal strips that raise it from 7/8 to 5/8.

The lugs on the top bars work best if cut to 1/4 to 5/16 inch thick at the end and 1/2 inch thick where they join with the end bars. This requires a slant cut which most manufacturers won't make. End bars should be 3/8 inch thick. One major manufacturer is now making end bars just under 9/32 inch thick which seriously weakens the end bar.

 

[chrisb]

So what is the correct size and style lugs and what is the correct depth for the rabbett?

The rabbett should be 5/8 of an inch deep unless you are using the metal strips that raise it from 7/8 to 5/8.

The lugs on the top bars work best if cut to 1/4 to 5/16 inch thick at the end and 1/2 inch thick where they join with the end bars. This requires a slant cut which most manufacturers won't make. End bars should be 3/8 inch thick. One major manufacturer is now making end bars just under 9/32 inch thick which seriously weakens the end bar.

all my top bars are tapered from 1/2 out to 7/16 at very end

 

[Finman]

Mixing and matching frame parts from different suppliers doesn't ever seem to work, the side bars don't fit the top bars because the cutting pattern is slightly different.

So it is. I have used knife then. Swedish Mora knife is good.

.

 

[BeeJayBee]

The rabbett at the top of the box ...

I had to look it up, and discovered that I already knew what a rebate is.

Trying to simplify everything to match my non-woodworker brain, are you saying that some Langstroth frames are only top beespace unless they're used in the same manufacturer's boxes?

 

[Fusion_power]

Trying to simplify everything to match my non-woodworker brain, are you saying that some Langstroth frames are only top beespace unless they're used in the same manufacturer's boxes?

I'm trying to say that the Langstroth standard is not very standard so use caution when mixing equipment from different vendors. I was putting shallow frames into supers today and realized that I have equipment from 5 different suppliers plus some I made. Some of the frames have 7/16 inch thick lugs, some 1/4, and every size in between. The frames I made have lugs 5/16 inch thick which gives 5/16 top bee space. Bees build much less burr comb when a proper bee space is maintained.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I'm trying to say that the Langstroth standard is not very standard

...

'Langstroth standard' there are about ninety sub species, some of which are totally incompatible with each other.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/lang.html

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I had to look it up, and discovered that I already knew what a rebate is.

Over here a Rabbett or rabbett plane is usually used to describe the tool used to make a rebate which makes sense as the word is derived from the French rabattre meaning to beat down thus the rabbett is used to 'beat down' the wood to make a rebate
When I was on the tools we also used a rabbett plane to make rebates. Last Christmas present we bought the old man actually before he died was a new one.

 

[Fusion_power]

Rabbett or rabbett plane is usually used to describe the tool

There is a lot of pleasure to having excellent tools and using them for what they were designed. I purchased my tablesaw 40 years ago and have used it extensively. This year I upgraded to a freud thin kerf 40 tooth blade and a freud dado. It is amazing how much difference they made in the old table saw's performance.

Re Langstroth standard, it is worth mentioning that the frames we use are Hoffman design, not Langstroth. The hives we use are based on Langstroth standard, IMO a poor overall design all things considered. That is why I am making my own frames and changing over to square Dadant depth 11 5/8 equipment with 11 1/4 frames.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Err, okay. I thought it was such a simple question to begin with, but it is beekeeping after all!

Is it likely that I could use Mann Lake frames in Paynes (Swienty) Langstroths along with a mix of Maisemore and Thornes Dadant shallow frames in the upper box, or will they compromise beespace by sitting too high on the frame rests? Or have I got to stick with Maisemore or Thornes?

These are the brood box dimensions from Swienty, but I don't think it says enough to work it out.
Height: 240 mm
Weight: 1,6 kg
Ins. Length: 463 mm
Ins. Width: 374 mm
Top bar: 487 mm
Outs. Length: 540 mm
Outs. Width: 450 mm

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You get bottom or top beespace hives by virtue of the depth of the rebate they sit in - you don't have bottom or top beespace frames which is what some are implying on here!

 

[BeeJayBee]

Yes, I know that, and I know that Langstroths should be top bee space unless the beekeeper changes things round. I haven't changed a thing.

What I'm guessing is that some hives have a slightly higher (or lower) frame rest to match the way that the same manufacturer makes their frames. Slightly lower = thicker/deeper top bar or lug (that's the top to bottom measurement) and vice versa.

If you mix frames with different depth top bars do you end up with either not quite enough room the bees in between the top bar and the bottom bars of the frames in the upper box, or too much space and it gets filled with brace comb, or doesn't it matter?

Or have I got that wrong too?

 

[Finman]

.
You shall overcome all those. It will not be end of the world. And not most difficult in beekeeping. There all kind of top bars and fishing line setups, what you can use if normal frame is not possible.

.

 

[mjt68]

Top is top, bottom is bottom but exactly how fat or a thin and bee and beespace is seems to vary. I've mixed and matched Langstroth frames from lots of manufacturers and haven't had any massive problems. The height isn't the issue anyway, more how the Hoffman spacers interact...

If we're puzzling ML sizes and designs, can I ask why their framed excluder has a beespace on both sides? Is burr comb desirable in certain markets?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If we're puzzling ML sizes and designs, can I ask why their framed excluder has a beespace on both sides? Is burr comb desirable in certain markets?

Most of their kit is top beespace, maybe they haven't twigged that all they need to do to make it suitable for bottom beespace is flip the thing over

 

[Fusion_power]

you don't have bottom or top beespace frames which is what some are implying on here!

Yes, you have top or bottom beespace frames by virtue of the thickness of the lug that sits in the "rebate". I have commercial shallow frames in my boxes that have 7/16 thick lugs. Put that in a 10/16 deep rebate and you have 3/16 left which is not a bee space. I've seen but do not own frames made with 1/2 inch lugs which means there is only 1/8 inch left above the frames.

For those saying it does not matter, take time to study the subject of bee space and you will find that incorrect bee space makes the most tedious work out of hive manipulations. This is one case where Finman should be flag waving about doing the job right. Get hives designed with correct bee space and frames made to respect bee space at all points and beekeeping becomes much easier and more enjoyable.

P.S. does anyone else notice that a Langstroth standard hive is 9 5/8 inches deep but the frames are only 9 1/8 inches? I guarantee that 1/2 inch of open vertical space between frames will ALWAYS be filled with burr comb! This is why my new hives are carefully designed with 5/8 inch deep rebates, 11 5/8 inch deep boxes, and 11 1/4 inch deep frames. Bee space is 3/8 inch all the way around the frame top, bottom, and sides.

 

[misterbee82]

Yes, you have top or bottom beespace frames by virtue of the thickness of the lug that sits in the "rebate". I have commercial shallow frames in my boxes that have 7/16 thick lugs. Put that in a 10/16 deep rebate and you have 3/16 left which is not a bee space. I've seen but do not own frames made with 1/2 inch lugs which means there is only 1/8 inch left above the frames.

For those saying it does not matter, take time to study the subject of bee space and you will find that incorrect bee space makes the most tedious work out of hive manipulations. This is one case where Finman should be flag waving about doing the job right. Get hives designed with correct bee space and frames made to respect bee space at all points and beekeeping becomes much easier and more enjoyable.

P.S. does anyone else notice that a Langstroth standard hive is 9 5/8 inches deep but the frames are only 9 1/8 inches? I guarantee that 1/2 inch of open vertical space between frames will ALWAYS be filled with burr comb! This is why my new hives are carefully designed with 5/8 inch deep rebates, 11 5/8 inch deep boxes, and 11 1/4 inch deep frames. Bee space is 3/8 inch all the way around the frame top, bottom, and sides.

Been reading about bee space concepts and the comb that they make to fill it.