Mann-Lake boxes

[Little John]

I see there's been some interest here in the quality of Mann-Lake's boxes - so here's my input on this ....

Last year I took delivery of a hundred quid's worth of 'standard' (i.e. seconds) cedar brood boxes. This shows some examples of the knots in them:

Now knots in the sides or front/back panels don't matter very much, but knots in the rails are really bad news, as rails can become warped as a result.

My plan was to cut-up these boxes to make 5-frame nucs - but - I didn't fully appreciate how much of a problem this warping of the rails would become. I decided to build the boxes first, and then sort out any problems later - which was a HUGE mistake.

Here's a shot of the glued boxes:

New sides were then added using Oregon Pine Studs recovered from pallets, with glued and screwed butt joints, and grooves cut into the inner sides for feeder-dividers so that they can be used either as 5-frame nucs or as dual half-size-frame mating nucs.

It was at this point that the 'warped rails' problem became evident, as the gap between the new sides (which were precisely 225mm ) and the rails became obvious:

But - there was a further problem, in that as most of the rails were concave on their outer edges, and that as this concavity wasn't necessarily equal around a central point, there was no longer any reference surface by which to machine this error out. So - I was forced to hot-glue the original sides together back-to-back, and approximate as equally as possible the resulting 'rock'.

Strips of filler wood were then glued on, and the upper and lower surfaces finally machined flat. This of course, was a lot of farting about. But - lesson learned - machine any warped rails straight BEFORE assembly, not afterwards.

Then filler was applied, sanded down and the boxes finally painted with industrial floor paint.

Ok - latest update ...

I took delivery this morning of another 20 Mann-Lake flat-pack brood boxes - in pine this time, not cedar - only to discover that these boxes (as supplied) are not the same 'design': the cedar boxes were bottom-bee-space and had angled edges to the front/back panels, eliminating the need to fit runners.

These pine brood boxes are almost bottom-bee-space, except the bottom rails do not have the correct profile for b/b-s. With runners fitted and the bottom rails re-profiled, they would then become b/b-s ; with the bottoms of the front/back panels padded-out and no runners fitted to their tops, they could then be run as top-bee-space. But as delivered, they are neither - so if you're planning on just slotting these together 'as received', you'll be disappointed.

The boxes are being sold at a very low price, and are fair value for money - but you really do need some woodworking machinery to make them serviceable.

LJ

 

[oliver90owner]

'Once bitten, twice shy' is my philosophy - particularly when buying.

I would be giving them a wide berth - more than a barge pole length, I would suggest. Just not worth the effort of having to re-engineer them all.

 

[Millet]

That is not good, pathetic in fact.
Thank you for the heads up John.

 

[Little John]

Just to clarify the faulty lower rail profile - thought a diagram might be handy:

The lower rail profile in the pine boxes is faulty, both in having a base which is too wide, and not having a sloping top for rain run-off. (circled in red)

To achieve bottom b/s, the area marked in red needs to be removed, and the area marked in light brown added. Unfortunately material cannot be removed from the top of the lower rail to achieve an angled profile, as that action would also remove material from the top of finger joints at either end of the rail, which would both weaken those joints, and require filler adding afterwards.

To achieve top b/s, the areas marked in light brown would need to be added.

Hope that clarifies this snafu better than just a description of it.

LJ

 

[Chrisfnvs]

The problem with the bottom bar was indeed the reason i was given for the delay in delivering my order, as they were waiting for the replacement bottom bars to arrive.

 

[Michael Palmer]

But - lesson learned - machine any warped rails straight BEFORE assembly, not afterwards.

I would think the lesson learned would be to get your cedar bodies from someone who knows what they're doing.

 

[Swarm]

Way too many knots.

 

[Little John]

I would think the lesson learned would be to get your cedar bodies from someone who knows what they're doing.

LOL !

On the positive side - their pine brood boxes (deeps for the pedants) are so cheap that with some DIY I can make a wooden carry-home nuc box for the same capital outlay as a waxed cardboard carry-home box. And if I were a customer, I know which one I'd choose - as the wooden box can still be used for housing nucs, whereas the waxed cardboard is only a 'one-off use' item.

But - yes - I do wish Mann-Lake would pay less attention to their sales-pitches, and a little more to the quality of their products, as quality will always sell itself.

LJ

 

[MikeT]

I bought a couple of BBs and supers in pine to see what they were like. I assembled them today with no problems, (pinned and glued). As mentioned by Little John the bottom bars are incorrect. Easily remedied by running a router along to remove the unnecessary part of the bottom bar as mentioned and illustrated above. I might add a sloping fillet onto the top of the bottom bar, to aid rain run off.

On the whole the boxes were cheaper than I could buy and make myself. I am now awaiting for my cedar boxes, lets hope they are as good as Thorne's seconds.

Mike

 

[Little John]

Mike - if you've already glued them, this might be too late for you - but - another way of dealing with those bottom bars for someone with a plane but no router, is to fit the bottom bars upside down. That would then would give you enough 'meat' above the finger joints to run a plane over the top to effect a sloping profile. You then need to add thin strips - something like 1/2 inch square - onto the underside.

But I agree with you - for around a tenner each, it's difficult to make a case for making your own brood boxes from scratch.

LJ

 

[Arfermo]

I bought some boxes from Pains-in-arse a couple of years ago that had the slope LJ shows in the first cedar profile. Planed the damned things off so I could use normal runners. Plastic or metal runners last a lot longer than the soft cedar runner alternative. Pains were not pleased when told what I was going to do!!!

 

[Swarm]

And Maisees use the same idea. Never been a problem.

 

[Hivemaker.]

And Maisees use the same idea. Never been a problem.

The Paynes ones are also manufactured by Maisees.

 

[Little John]

An update - have just received an email from Mann-Lake (in response to my complaint) in which they accept that the bottom bars are faulty, and have offered to send correct replacements out in 3 to 4 weeks.

LJ

 

[jaybee76]

Just to add in my thoughts to this thread.

I've just received my order of 10 national shallows in pine. Yes, there are some knots, and also some panels have sapwood in too which isn't ideal. On the other hand they were less than £7 in the sale, which even accounting for the small amount of time to plane any minor flaws is fine by me (I normally use WBP - a 8'x4' sheet makes 10 supers so with some 22x44mm pine cut and planed for runners each box would cost around £4 - but that's probably around two hours just for the cutting plus travel to get the wood).

Concavity of the runners doesn't worry me too much (within reason) as all of my joints are screwed and not glued. So far by lag screwing through the panels all have warps in the runners haven't caused any issues.

To be honest, I think I'll probably buy again... at least at sale prices.

 

[jaybee76]

Also, just to add. ML national shallows/supers, at least the pine ones, have a small slot for adding in metal frame runners. To be honest, I'd have preferred not having anything and just being able to nail these in as since I won't use them it does create an extra crevice for things to hide.