Lost two colonies

[mbc]

I thought treating swarms with an oxalic drible would be a good idea but I noticed more queen failures afterwards. Anecdotal maybe but I'm sure others will have seen the same

 

[grizzly]

Funny you mention that, in my first year i followed others and not knowing any different treated with OA, i did the same this year as extra insurance against varroa, however this year i have noticed a large number of dead outside the hives, so i am now really keen to open up and make sure they are ok in numbers, but its still too cold, so very frustrating.

Its going to be a few more weeks until i know just how many have survived for sure. This spring i will do my first shook swarms along with the usual varroa management throughout the year, but avoid OA next xmas, and see how they get on.

 

[MuswellMetro]

here we see again a self maid procedure which is based only on DIY opinion.

He is a regional Bee inspector, so his veiws are must be related to his employer who are the National Bee Unit at York

ORIGINAL recipe is that for Langstroth give 40 ml to one box hive

He was saying that ( as i says on the bottle use 50Ml) that the UK 50ml of oxi per National hive is to much, and that the 50000 standard National full of Bee should have 30ml-35ml...much the same ratio per Bee as your 40ml on 61000 bee langstroth

and that undersize broods should have less 25ml

.
Black macic will never die i do not use Oxi, i use lactic Acid, why because i am very alergic to oxalic acid and rhubarb..if i get3.2% oxi on me, i might go in shock, so i dont take the chance

.[/QUOTE]

 

[Heather]

I make my own solution, only use 5mls per seam, have a good varroa result and don't lose bees.Maybe your solution is too strong!
9 colonies came through the treatment and the winter, so something is ok

Will be alert to queen behaviour though - and promise to report back

 

[ian]

Hi

A point to remember when quoting bee inspectors and the use of Oxalic. Up until a season or 2 ago they would not even admit the stuff existed as a treatment!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are many on this and even the other forum that have had far more experience using Oxalic than the average bee inspector.

For those of us that started using it some time ago the only place to get info was the web and beek friends in Europe.


Regards Ian

 

[mbc]

bee inspectors invariably have theyre own bees and often nbu best "practice" is not how they do theyre own beekeeping

 

[MuswellMetro]

Hi

A point to remember when quoting bee inspectors and the use of Oxalic. Up until a season or 2 ago they would not even admit the stuff existed as a treatment!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Regards Ian

point taken,

he was rather main stream on everthing..would not comment on use of thymol crystals and thymol patties as "not approved but would commnet on Apiguard use

Finman ,may know more than the Bee Unit, or more likely more than the "official line" they are prepared to say in open meeting

anway, i come up in a rash just holding a bottle of oxi...so i was quite pleased with his support for lactic and drone cull the method i use...but after Finmans ear bash and others veiws on BIs then i may get my friend to help me with Oxi rather than use lactic next year

 

[Finman]

point taken,
......i may get my friend to help me with Oxi rather than use lactic next year

British beekeeping comes 10 years after European beekeeping in Oxalic. Lactic acid was popular 20 years ago in Germany. Go for it!

 

[m100]

He was saying that ( as i says on the bottle use 50Ml) that the UK 50ml of oxi per National hive is to much, and that the 50000 standard National full of Bee should have 30ml-35ml...much the same ratio per Bee as your 40ml on 61000 bee langstroth

and that undersize broods should have less 25ml

1) you don't (usually) treat during summer when the hive population could be 50000 or 61000 or whatever.

2) trickle at 5ml per seam evenly distributed along that seam automatically gives a suitable dose.

3) why the hell is the dose level of oxalic acid STILL disputed when the appropriate amount to use has been proven by heaps of research?

4) http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=43164#post43164

 

[Repwoc]

1) you don't (usually) treat during summer when the hive population could be 50000 or 61000 or whatever.

2) trickle at 5ml per seam evenly distributed along that seam automatically gives a suitable dose.

3) why the hell is the dose level of oxalic acid STILL disputed when the appropriate amount to use has been proven by heaps of research?

4) http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=43164#post43164

Well, you might think that those simple instructions are quite clear; however 'one seam of bees' is not reliably quantitative, so applying a fixed, carefully measured 5ml of OA syrup to '1 seam' gives quite a variable dose IMO. Eg at the edge of a cluster the seam of bees will be shorter and shallower than one in the centre; a seam of bees from a strong colony will have more bees than one from a weak colony.

Do you apply the whole 5ml to the bees in the seam at the edge of the cluster? If so, then I guess those bees will get at least 2 times more OA per bee than in the centre seam.

 

[m100]

Well, you might think that those simple instructions are quite clear; however 'one seam of bees' is not reliably quantitative, so applying a fixed, carefully measured 5ml of OA syrup to '1 seam' gives quite a variable dose IMO. Eg at the edge of a cluster the seam of bees will be shorter and shallower than one in the centre; a seam of bees from a strong colony will have more bees than one from a weak colony.

Do you apply the whole 5ml to the bees in the seam at the edge of the cluster? If so, then I guess those bees will get at least 2 times more OA per bee than in the centre seam.

You apply 5ml along the whole length of the seam at a constant rate, then you know exactly what the applied dosage is, there is no 'I will give this one a bit more as it has more bees' Any surplus will fall through. Any seams without any bees are not treated. You fill the syringe with 50ml and a 10 seam hive can be treated in less than a minute.

The length of one seam of bees is, across many frame types worldwide a quite small small percentage change, the depth might change, and the number of bees might change even within a hive type depending on the strain and local climate, but all that along with perceived dosage of '2x' at the edge is of no real consequence.

Maybe this scenario might help...

Got a headache? (you might have after hearing all the crap spouted about oxalic acid doses!)

As an adult you might take 500mg or 1000mg paracetamol no more frequently than every 4 hours with an absolute safe limit of 4000mg per 24 hours. You might even take just one 500mg tablet in 24 hours. Regardless of the size of the human, as a person over 12, from 40kg to 240kg the declared safe dosage is the same. Overdose toxicity has been determined at 10g (or if you are being really pedantic, 200mg/kg for little people)

With oxalic acid, dispensed at 5ml per seam, you are hitting the same zone / sweet spot as a human taking between 500mg and 4000mg of paracetamol.

So the range of safe dosage of paracetamol is 8x, the toxic effects to the human are negligible at these levels, and are only approaching toxicity with some degree of confidence at 20x the lowest dose.

5ml per seam evenly dispensed won't kill many bees, it will, during a brood break, beyond any shadow of doubt kill the vast majority of varroa. It makes no difference if your colony is tiny, or normal, or massive, or on one two or three brood boxes, Langstroth, or National, or Dadant, or Smith or WBC, or KTB, or in a Beehaus.

But, tweak the dose down on a whim after reading some badly researched article in the beekeeping rags and use say 3.5ml per seam dumped only over the bees and your efficacy might be lower, and you could end up with more dead bees.

If you were to treat an overwintered mininuc, with frames say three inches square, then you would need to make drastic changes to dosage, but then that clearly falls into the 'under 12 year old or under 6 years old paracetamol dose regime' As a wild stab in the dark I'd probably treat with 1ml per seam if only because the frame is 3/14 of the length of a national and 1ml is an easy to see calibration.

 

[RoofTops]

No they don't. Either the OA which misses any bees falls harmlessly through the hive or it will dribble down onto some comb. This latter stuff may well get eaten up but all the research suggests the bees come to no harm from this. Trickling along the full length of the seam is the only way to ensure all the bees are treated, especially on deep frames or double brood boxes.

 

[Repwoc]

Martin: Thanks, doc - I agree with all that. Appreciate the clarification on what constitutes a 'seam of bees' - I had the notion it meant the bees between two frames but now I understand it to mean the gap between two frames which may have some bees somewhere in it.

Rooftops: When I had this little dilemma when I OA treated my hives just after Christmas, I decided to do exactly what you just said here - squirt 5ml down the full length of each gap - but I have wondered since if that was the right approach or not.

 

[bobandbec]

I adjust the quantity of OA per seam according to the bees in the seam.

In the centre of the cluster this would be about 4mls for me and at the edge perhaps only 2mls. Generally each colony gets up to about 25mls depending on the size and seams occupied, but it is actually onto the bees.

Before I get jumped upon from other members I'll say very quickly that this is my own method of application and not in accordance with the 5mls per seam which seems to be the standard recemmendation.

SO I'm NOT recommending it to other beekeepers.

It has worked for me over the last 4 or 5 Winters. I've increased from a starting 2 colonies to over 30 during this period. I do use it in conjunction with full Apiguard treatment in August/Sept and drone uncapping during the season, and I monitor regularly.

My own personal preference is to use OA but in as little quantity as possible.

(I don't think I can qualify it anymore?)

Peter