Lost colony

[Bakerbee]

Hi all. Ok i will post 2 seperate posts concerning the autopsy of both hives. I found different scenarios in them.

So hive 1.
These are from this hive, clearly i can see evidence of varroa in deformed wings and on the toothpic, scrappings of what looked like eggs from inside a cell..thisi s the only hive that had evidence like this and dead bees on the omf.

 

[Bakerbee]

This is hive 2.
There was zero capped brood. No bees, no obvious sign of varroa eggs from what i could see. Some frames had a rainbow of mouldy pollen but not much else to go on.
Note: this hive is nearly identical to hive i lost originally at start of this thread before the the update.

 

[The Poot]

Do you have other colonies or are you at a complete start again position?

 

[elainemary]

Hi all. Ok i will post 2 seperate posts concerning the autopsy of both hives. I found different scenarios in them.

So hive 1.
These are from this hive, clearly i can see evidence of varroa in deformed wings and on the toothpic, scrappings of what looked like eggs from inside a cell..thisi s the only hive that had evidence like this and dead bees on the omf.

Definitely succumbed to varroa. All the white flecks (guanine as correctly named by @Erichalfbee) is their excrement unfortunately and shrivelled wings of the bees as you quite rightly say down to deformed wing virus. Be worth looking back when you started your treatment. Main thing is to keep monitoring for mites regularly so you can treat before they multiply to dangerous levels.

 

[elainemary]

This is hive 2.
There was zero capped brood. No bees, no obvious sign of varroa eggs from what i could see. Some frames had a rainbow of mouldy pollen but not much else to go on.
Note: this hive is nearly identical to hive i lost originally at start of this thread before the the update.

Hi, can see lots of white flecks on this one too, esp towards the right hand side of the photo. Suspect suffered the same fate but others will have a view too.
There's a very good summary of how to treat combs and hives that have had bees that have died out in Thorne's newsletter just come out. It's not on their website. I've copied & pasted it into the attached for you.
Elaine

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hi all. Ok i will post 2 seperate posts concerning the autopsy of both hives. I found different scenarios in them.

Agree with Elaine
Varroa poop in both hives.
What did you treat with in the autumn and when?

 

[Bakerbee]

Hi all, as already stated i treated with apitraz for first time, as was unable to get any apiguard, which i normally use in previous years. I did sugar rolls each visit through summer( less than normal) which had small mite numbers.. Can i ask,
Where did all the bees go in two of my hives. Two of my hives had zero bees on the omf n zero on the frames. Im not talking about hive 1 pictured above.. Im asking about hive 2 photographed, and my originsl that i lost in my o.p. thats not pictured. I put strips on in late august after i had taken the honey off.

 

[Bakerbee]

Hi poot, i have to start agsin unfortunately. It was the most depressing visit to the apiary today. I could of wept. So much pollen , so much honey, so much work done by my bees. I thought with the mite checks throughout summer being low, strips on after the honey harvest, and a trickle last mid winter that i had ensured they would be ok.

I feel terribly responsible and want to ensure this doesnt happen again.


Could i have done more? What lessons can i learn (apart from the obvious) was there anything i could of done more this last year. Do any of you have any pointers for me to help me learn further?

Thanks for all your thoughts everyone.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Hi all, as already stated i treated with apitraz for first time, as was unable to get any apiguard, which i normally use in previous years. I did sugar rolls each visit through summer( less than normal) which had small mite numbers.. Can i ask,
Where did all the bees go in two of my hives. Two of my hives had zero bees on the omf n zero on the frames. Im not talking about hive 1 pictured above.. Im asking about hive 2 photographed, and my originsl that i lost in my o.p. thats not pictured. I put strips on in late august after i had taken the honey off.

You did sugar rolls every inspection weekly? Why?. If they were really low imo I wouldnt of done one for two weeks or a month?
What was the mite drop.with your apitraz treatment daily drops following treatment did you check inspection boards.

What was the natural mite drop on inspection boards before apitraz treatment.
There's things you need to observe before you follow on with anything.

Im not trying to have ago and I feel your pain losing one colony would really upset me, but 2 or 3 makes me wonder about your ipm.

 

[The Poot]

Hi poot, i have to start agsin unfortunately. It was the most depressing visit to the apiary today. I could of wept. So much pollen , so much honey, so much work done by my bees. I thought with the mite checks throughout summer being low, strips on after the honey harvest, and a trickle last mid winter that i had ensured they would be ok.

I feel terribly responsible and want to ensure this doesnt happen again.


Could i have done more? What lessons can i learn (apart from the obvious) was there anything i could of done more this last year. Do any of you have any pointers for me to help me learn further?

Thanks for all your thoughts everyone.

I‘m so sorry for you, it’s a horrible situation. I remember how well you said they built up through the Summer.
I‘m hoping that if I can get my colonies through the Winter, I’ll be in a position to help you come Spring.
I‘d be happy to downscale / split my colonies to help and am not far from you I think. My lot are all mongrels from swarms, but nice.
Keep in touch and remind me of this come April. I’d rather help you than see them fly off over my neighbours hedge

 

[pargyle]

You did sugar rolls every inspection weekly? Why?. If they were really low imo I wouldnt of done one for two weeks or a month?
What was the mite drop.with your apitraz treatment daily drops following treatment did you check inspection boards.

What was the natural mite drop on inspection boards before apitraz treatment.
There's things you need to observe before you follow on with anything.

Im not trying to have ago and I feel your pain losing one colony would really upset me, but 2 or 3 makes me wonder about your ipm.

There's no problem doing sugar rolls regularly... varroa levels can fluctuate significantly and what was a low infestation last week could be an alnost tragic infestation the next week (bees robbing other colonies or the conditons are right for an explosion of varroa) ... why would you not do regular sugar rolls ?- no harm to the bees and tells you exactly what the mite load is. Far better than looking at inspection board drop numbers,

Both Apitraz and Apivar are based on Amitraz ... there is evidence in the USA of varroa resistance to Amitraz being noticed in commercial colonies that have been treated long term with the products. I'm not suggesting that it is happening here but both these treatments have very specific treatment regimes and used wrongly (even accidentally leaving the strips in place for longer than needed) can reduce the effect of the treatment. People overdosing when the first treatment was not as effective as it might be can also reduce the efficacy. I can't remember which of the two it is but one of them has a limited shelf life ...

Plus... I see that Bakerbee has Commercial hives... these are big boxes, it's important that the treatment takes account of the size of the box.

Personally, I would be ringing the changes in treatment regime .. if the same product has been used on the colonies for four years it's time for a change.

It certainly looks as though these colonies have suffered from varroa but there may be other factors involved ... if there is DWV there may have been other disease present ..queen failure is becoming an ever increasing reality in UK beekeeping ... were any of these colonies new queens ?

There's possibly a varety of causes for these colony losses but at the end of the day it's often just a case of bad luck rather than bad beekeeping.

 

[The Poot]

Hi poot, i have to start agsin unfortunately. It was the most depressing visit to the apiary today. I could of wept. So much pollen , so much honey, so much work done by my bees. I thought with the mite checks throughout summer being low, strips on after the honey harvest, and a trickle last mid winter that i had ensured they would be ok.

I feel terribly responsible and want to ensure this doesnt happen again.


Could i have done more? What lessons can i learn (apart from the obvious) was there anything i could of done more this last year. Do any of you have any pointers for me to help me learn further?

Thanks for all your thoughts everyone.

Just noticed you’re on Commercial - I’m on National. Are they any good?

 

[Curly green finger's]

There's no problem doing sugar rolls regularly... varroa levels can fluctuate significantly and what was a low infestation last week could be an alnost tragic infestation the next week (bees robbing other colonies or the conditons are right for an explosion of varroa) ... why would you not do regular sugar rolls ?- no harm to the bees and tells you exactly what the mite load is. Far better than looking at inspection board drop numbers,

Both Apitraz and Apivar are based on Amitraz ... there is evidence in the USA of varroa resistance to Amitraz being noticed in commercial colonies that have been treated long term with the products. I'm not suggesting that it is happening here but both these treatments have very specific treatment regimes and used wrongly (even accidentally leaving the strips in place for longer than needed) can reduce the effect of the treatment. People overdosing when the first treatment was not as effective as it might be can also reduce the efficacy. I can't remember which of the two it is but one of them has a limited shelf life ...

Plus... I see that Bakerbee has Commercial hives... these are big boxes, it's important that the treatment takes account of the size of the box.

Personally, I would be ringing the changes in treatment regime .. if the same product has been used on the colonies for four years it's time for a change.

It certainly looks as though these colonies have suffered from varroa but there may be other factors involved ... if there is DWV there may have been other disease present ..queen failure is becoming an ever increasing reality in UK beekeeping ... were any of these colonies new queens ?

There's possibly a varety of causes for these colony losses but at the end of the day it's often just a case of bad luck rather than bad beekeeping.

I hear what your saying and I know somerimes it's bad luck.

by what I read Baker bee usually uses api guard? But because he couldnt get it he used apivar.

Dwv was mainly the contributing factor it could of well been some thing else as well.. It definitely wasn't EFB or AFB.
Do you sugar roll every week?
Would you if varroa levels were very low.?

You would have a better result leaving it longer for more brood to emerge?

I know sugar rolls are easy and not harmful, I've done alcohol washes which I will never ever do again.

I read that Baker bee was unable to inspect because of covid.?

Imo ipm has been flawed..
@Bakerbee im not trying to be nasty in any way but trying to understand your situation..
Apologies if it may read as so.

 

[amandaj57]

I‘m so sorry for you, it’s a horrible situation. I remember how well you said they built up through the Summer.
I‘m hoping that if I can get my colonies through the Winter, I’ll be in a position to help you come Spring.
I‘d be happy to downscale / split my colonies to help and am not far from you I think. My lot are all mongrels from swarms, but nice.
Keep in touch and remind me of this come April. I’d rather help you than see them fly off over my neighbours hedge

The World would be a better place if more kindness like this existed.

 

[Bakerbee]

You did sugar rolls every inspection weekly? Why?. If they were really low imo I wouldnt of done one for two weeks or a month?
What was the mite drop.with your apitraz treatment daily drops following treatment did you check inspection boards.

What was the natural mite drop on inspection boards before apitraz treatment.
There's things you need to observe before you follow on with anything.

Im not trying to have ago and I feel your pain losing one colony would really upset me, but 2 or 3 makes me wonder about your ipm.

Whats ipm?

 

[pargyle]

Whats ipm?

Integrated Pest Management... a fancy way of saying don't just stick to one treatment, mix things up a bit and see what works best. The key is really to test for varroa and stay on top of it.

 

[Bakerbee]

Ah thanks for explanation pargyl.
Ok i will try to explain counts. I was unable to get to my bees as regularly this summer so it was approx every 3 weeks. So yes i did sugar rolls each inspection. I tried to cover all bases each visit , counts ensuring extra room with supers ect. . My mite drop was about 4 in april and climbed a bit throughout summer and was 16 at last roll when i took off the supers. But i thought this was acceptable as it was later summer due to build up, and that they were being treated immediately after the supers came off. I didnt get chance to count the drop when the strips went on. I realize now that this was possibly the crucial moment/chance to of acted but was possibly over confident or complacement as ive never had problems in the past and felt id done enough. A costly mistake.

I still dont understand where and why two hives were completely empty of bees tho.

Covid has alot to answer for in so many ways this last year. I wish id been able to inspect weekly, maybe i eould have noticed something, maybe not.

I dont take any comments as harsh everyone, im grateful for any advice given. And Poot your offer is extremely kind and i will take you up on it in spring. I shall now spend the rest of winter reading up on deseases varroa and all nastys, as i never want this to happen again. Oh and tidying my apiary and kit, ready for spring.

Lastly a huge thankyou to all of you for your guidance and thoughts.

 

[pargyle]

Ah thanks for explanation pargyl.
Ok i will try to explain counts. I was unable to get to my bees as regularly this summer so it was approx every 3 weeks. So yes i did sugar rolls each inspection. I tried to cover all bases each visit , counts ensuring extra room with supers ect. . My mite drop was about 4 in april and climbed a bit throughout summer and was 16 at last roll when i took off the supers. But i thought this was acceptable as it was later summer due to build up, and that they were being treated immediately after the supers came off. I didnt get chance to count the drop when the strips went on. I realize now that this was possibly the crucial moment/chance to of acted but was possibly over confident or complacement as ive never had problems in the past and felt id done enough. A costly mistake.

I still dont understand where and why two hives were completely empty of bees tho.

Covid has alot to answer for in so many ways this last year. I wish id been able to inspect weekly, maybe i eould have noticed something, maybe not.

I dont take any comments as harsh everyone, im grateful for any advice given. And Poot your offer is extremely kind and i will take you up on it in spring. I shall now spend the rest of winter reading up on deseases varroa and all nastys, as i never want this to happen again. Oh and tidying my apiary and kit, ready for spring.

Lastly a huge thankyou to all of you for your guidance and thoughts.

**** happens .. we all lose colonies occasionally and sometimes there is no specific explanation, don't beat yourself up about it. From the sounds of thngs you haven't done much wrong although 16 mites is a bit on the high side in a sample of about 200 bees ..if it was less bees then it would be a worry. I would have checked all colonies and then again in a week. You did the right thing in treating them ... it should have sorted them out but ... as I said earlier ,... there are a variety of factors that can influence treatment.

A suggestion ... have a look at Oxalic Acid by sublimation ... a pan sublimator is very cheap and it's quick and easy on the bees, you see the results almost instantaneously.

 

[Bakerbee]

Just noticed you’re on Commercial - I’m on National. Are they any good?

The first hive i started with was commercial so i just continued with them. I like the little extra space they offer in terms of laying room. I find handling frames is just fine with shorter lugs, but my only grievance is they do get heavy when full, especially if you go to double brood. Lifting the top box off to jnspect below is challenging. Being female, i can just about lift the top brood box off by myself when full so not too much of an issue. I now have so much kit it would cost alot to change over to national and am overall happy with their size.

 

[Bakerbee]

**** happens .. we all lose colonies occasionally and sometimes there is no specific explanation, don't beat yourself up about it. From the sounds of thngs you haven't done much wrong although 16 mites is a bit on the high side in a sample of about 200 bees ..if it was less bees then it would be a worry. I would have checked all colonies and then again in a week. You did the right thing in treating them ... it should have sorted them out but ... as I said earlier ,... there are a variety of factors that can influence treatment.

A suggestion ... have a look at Oxalic Acid by sublimation ... a pan sublimator is very cheap and it's quick and easy on the bees, you see the results almost instantaneously.

I did look into treating this way but was advised with only 3 hives it was not worth it. It is definitely something i will look into in the future.