Long Deep Hives

[Jack Straw]

I quite like the concept of a long deep hive, being able to give the colony more space by moving a dummy board sideways thereby creating a larger area horizontally rather than by adding supers and increasing vertically.
However I am unsure how they work. Do you separate out the broood area and the honey stores similar to adding a super on top of a queen excluder or do you just allow the queen access to the whole area and either don't extract or somehow only select those frames for extraction which have had no brood in them?
Many thanks

 

[Finman]

However I am unsure how they work. Do you separate out the broood area and the honey stores similar to adding a super on top of a queen excluder or do you just allow the queen access to the whole area and either.....
Many thanks

I know how they work. Finland was full of long hives 40 years ago. Now they are all burned. I had 3 new long hives 1963.

 

[pargyle]

I have a Long Deep Hive ... 14 x 12 frames and 25 or so frames long. I find that they site the brood nest in the middle of the available space you give them and put honey in an arc above and below the brood in the brood frames. The surplus honey tends to be stored in frames outside of the central brood area. I don't use a queen excluder as the queen tends not to lay in the frames used as storage. You can just take a frame out when it has been filled, extract it (or as I have done in the past crush & strain) and give it back to them to use again and clean up.

There are designs such as the Dartington and it's plastic lookalike the Beehaus that utilise supers on top of the long hive - I've never tried that but there are a few on here who have Dartingtons and Beehaus so they will be able to tell you how that works.

My LDH is also super insulated (triple wall construction - two layers of timber with a polystyrene sandwich) which I think is important. I dummy the hive down to the size of the colony and fill any unused space with insulation materials.

Downsides -

1. They are quite heavy so they need to be sited where they are going to stay.
2. Not many extractors take 14 x 12 frames.
3. You need to get used to working with the frames stretching out in front of you rather than across your body.
4. They will produce very large colonies so it's a lot of bees once they are established so you need manageable bees in them.
5. I think they produce less honey surplus than a conventional stack.
6. Finman doesn't like them so you will get loads of adverse comments if you fess up to having one.

There are a lot of positives to having a long hive .. I like mine and the bees have done very well in it - as a donor colony they are ideal as it's easy to make splits with a divider board and entrances at either end of the hive. As I said - the bees seem to like them but you will be delving into the dark side !!

 

[user 6228]

with top bar hives the geometry is working against from a thermal point of view. So make sure you dont skimp on the the top bar thickness, the sealing and the insulation.

 

[Tremyfro]

I have 'come out'....
I also have Long Hives...not only that...but they are also Beehaus....and not only that....but I have 4 Beehaus...Beehice....Beehaus's......Beehauses....not sure what the multiple would be...ha ha...
Finny hasn't noticed yet...Tee Hee...
I like them...I also have National Poly hives....but I can only inspect them when my OH is able to help as I can't lift the full brood boxes and supers.
So Long Hives are great for me....they are at the right height...mine are also super insulated...Pargyle has influenced me!
So now all my Beehaus have extra insulation in the walls and roof and floor.
If you read the threads about Beehaus...they got really slated here but a lot of what was said ....was by people who either hadn't seen them or hadn't used long hives or Beehaus. So mainly can be ignored.
I live in a very windy place...none of my Beehaus have blown over so far.
None of the legs have splayed with the weight.
No bees have escaped from anywhere except the entrances.
I like some of the colours...and those I don't like I have painted.
Like all Long Hives...if you want to move them...you have do it a little differently. If you lift the end support frame onto a trolley...then you can move it easily. Otherwise...you need to empty the bees from it into boxes...a la Pargyle...best to put them where they are going to stay put.
Beekeeping with them is the same but manipulations are easier and can be done within the hive. The Beehaus comes with supers ...so a little different from most Long Hives. The Beehaus has a QE for the brood box and for the supers.
The separation board in the brood box allows you to make splits or AS or nucs....it has a small area in which a piece of QE fits. So you don't need extra equipment as you can do these manipulations within the hive itself. Then if there is a big nectar flow...you can recombine for a bigger foraging force.
There are also larger QE for use under a super...if you want to keep the Queen down in the brood box....your choice. They do tend to sag onto the brood frames and I don't think they are entirely queen proof. I will be making some adjustment with these before next year.
When you are expanding the colony...frames are added one at a time at the front of the brood nest....as many as it takes. The middle separation board can be moved back and the honey store frames added when there is a flow. My extractor takes 14x12 frames....so I don't really need to use the supers if I don't want to. You can hang a feeder frame box in the hive....I have been feeding as the weather has been poor here...it works well with syrup or fondant.
Working with the Long Hive is easier as frames are only moved sideways to reach the brood nest. Then you are only uncovering a small area at a time as the cover boards each cover about 5 frames. I find I can keep count of how many BIAS frames there are! Lifting and turning 14x12 frames is technique...not strength...and once I learnt how to do it...it made my decision to have Long Hives inevitable.
Some people say you don't get as much honey from a Long Hive...I like some honey...but I don't want to be knee deep in jars of it. So I am happy with...well...just enough for all the family to enjoy. After all...it is a hobby not a business.
It's really a case of finding out what you like using and not an either/or situation.
You can make them from wood...but I couldn't do that and OH has too many jobs on his list already! I even bought the How to build a Dartington book...and waved it under his nose...to no avail!
So it is the Beehaus for me....and I have to say that so far I am very happy with them.

 

[Jack Straw]

Thanks Pargyle
I have seen pictures of yours and I do like the way you have built it
1. and 2. shouldn't be a problem and for 3. if the roof is wholly removable then it would mean that you could inspect from behind the hive. I'm not sure why 4. should be the case. Not disputing that it is just not sure I understand why. 5. might be a problem, I do enjoy extracting and selling/gifting honey. 6. is already sorted following a spell of judicious use of the Ignore button no-one on here antagonises me any more
Maybe I need to research Beehaus (urggh plastic is my first reaction but maybe I need to suppress that and go have a look)
Thanks again for you comments

 

[Jack Straw]

Thanks Tremyfro
Are you saying that there is a vertical qe as well as a larger horizontal one? That's really interesting. Any thoughts as to why there is less honey produced?
I appreciate your comments

 

[Finman]

.
Long hive or horizontal hive has much interest, because you need not lift heavy boxes high. Even our semi professional beeks have tried them nowadays. They say that hives are swarmy. Bees are not able to handle honey stores horizontaly as well as in vertical hives.

But in Eastern Europe chest hives are very popular. They are popular too, because they are heavy and painfull to steal. Frame size is big and you must extract frames which has brood and honey. Colonies are small.

But it is a real mistake that the whole bottom has mesh. So ventilation is 200 fold compared to solid floor. That makes no sense.

 

[Tremyfro]

Thanks Tremyfro
Are you saying that there is a vertical qe as well as a larger horizontal one? That's really interesting. Any thoughts as to why there is less honey produced?
I appreciate your comments

Yes the vertical one slides into the top of the vertical divider. It is very useful...you can get superceedure cells produced and then close it off whist they develop. Then you have all the nurse bees feeding them.
I have made insulation for under the OMF...it is held in place by plywood varroa boards. I agree with Finny...a big OMF during the winter would be a liability. So my Beehaus have insulation above, the sides and underneath. This summer I didn't even take out the insulation and plywood as the weather has been awful and very windy. I will be removing it for varroa control at the end of the summer. There is a small amount of ventilation but I feel the entrance allows quite a bit of ventilation anyway.
It is just hearsay that Long Hives don't produce so much honey....so much depends on nectar flow anyway. Also it depends on how you manipulate the hive. You can use it as a massive colony and use supers above. Lots of options.
I think also as the brood nest is bigger, as you can allow expansion without adding boxes etc...inspections are less disturbing as you don't split the brood....then I think the bees store more on the frames of the brood nest. The honey is there but not for the beekeeper...well except robbing beekeepers.
As regards the plastic.....poly hives are plastic really. If the Beehaus had been designed with wood grain on it...and it was brown...I think more people would have liked it. I just painted some of mine....they blend in with the rest of my pastel hives. The bees like them...so that is good.

 

[For want of a better word]

Top bars it seems produce less honey... but are really good at supplying drones for our mating apiaries... going to set one up for native black Cornish bee for next season.
Condenser box in roof stuffed with Alpacca wool seems to work very well... insulates... regulates RH and is light to lift... and is from our home heard!

Yeghes da

 

[pargyle]

3. if the roof is wholly removable then it would mean that you could inspect from behind the hive.

As the hive is long the only option is to inspect from the Long side - whether the roof is removable has no effect .. the frames are set in the hive at right angles to the long side so you are lifting frames at right angles to your body and not parallel to it as you would with a conventional 'square' hive. With a full 14 x 12 frame it's quite an awkward lift but what I tend to do is make space at the end of the hive and slide the frames along - only lifting out those that I feel need to be inspected.


I'm not sure why 4. should be the case. Not disputing that it is just not sure I understand why.

They just do produce a lot of bees ...I don't know why ... perhaps it's the fact that they really can extend the brood nest horizontally as far as they wish ... mine, at one point, had 13 frames of brood and bees on 24 frames .. with a colony of this size you really don't want bees that are up and at you (or at least I don't !). The colony size also can lead to swarming as Finman said .. you need to keep an eye open for queen cells.


5. might be a problem, I do enjoy extracting and selling/gifting honey.

I don't think they produce that much less .. it's probably more that they tend to store a lot of it in the brood nest, above and below the brood so it's less accessible ... but a full 14 x 12 frame is a chunk of honey so you don't need too many of them to have the same amount of honey as you would get in a national super.


6. is already sorted following a spell of judicious use of the Ignore button no-one on here antagonises me any more.

yeh - well someone has to be here for target practice !

Maybe I need to research Beehaus (urggh plastic is my first reaction but maybe I need to suppress that and go have a look)

I'm not sold on plastic hives - the Beehaus has cavity walls which rely on air for insulation - I think Tremyfro is on the right track filling the space with proper insulation. The important insulation is, of course, on top of the crown boards and in the roof - as that's where most of the heat lost will go given the chance.

I have a full length open mesh floor but it is protected by a 'drawer' underneath to stop the draughts .. I don't think it's necessary to close it off entirely but a skirt of some sort around the bottom of the hive will deflect any wind under the hive.[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]

 

[Tremyfro]

In the Beehaus....the crown boards are hollow. I looked at filling them with some insulation but there are ribs in them so the insulation would need to flow...I thought that polystyrene beads may be an option. The roof is also hollow and it may be possible to fill that. There is a gap between the crown boards and the roof which could easily be filled with a sheepswool pad....I used a roll of sheepswool roof insulation for the sides....so cutting a piece for the roof was easy.
As regards the plastic...well I don't really notice it now...especially since the bright yellow one was painted pale blue. It blends in with the poly hives...which are also plastic...ha ha.
I have been looking into having a poly long hive and think that I have found a way to make one. I know a wooden one with insulation...like Pargyle has made is an option...but since he says a forklift truck is required to move it..that rather put me off! The Beehaus are good but the price is still a stumbling block...even secondhand as they hold their price. So if I can make a poly long hive...I could have a few more.

 

[BeeJayBee]

In the Beehaus....the crown boards are hollow. I looked at filling them with some insulation but there are ribs in them so the insulation would need to flow...I thought that polystyrene beads may be an option.

Would expanding foam filler work?

 

[Cussword]

Would expanding foam filler work?

Be careful with the foam filler, I used it to fill the cavity in a cool box that I was going to use as a mash tun. I tried to get that little bit more in, there wasn't a flat surface to be found. :

 

[pargyle]

Be careful with the foam filler, I used it to fill the cavity in a cool box that I was going to use as a mash tun. I tried to get that little bit more in, there wasn't a flat surface to be found. :

Yes ... it's powerful stuff and a bit of heat is generated. What is amazing is just how much volume is generated from a small amount of the unactivated filler,

The Beehaus plastic is not that thick so I would be more inclined to use polystyrene balls ... it would mean cutting a bigger hole but that could easily be filled with a grommet.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Polystyre...-Balls-/320956984184?var=&hash=item4aba86eb78

These would probably do the job ....

 

[Tremyfro]

Yes ... it's powerful stuff and a bit of heat is generated. What is amazing is just how much volume is generated from a small amount of the unactivated filler,

The Beehaus plastic is not that thick so I would be more inclined to use polystyrene balls ... it would mean cutting a bigger hole but that could easily be filled with a grommet.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Polystyre...-Balls-/320956984184?var=&hash=item4aba86eb78

These would probably do the job ....

Yes I thought of using the foam stuff...but I don't want to make the roof any heavier....not an issue for men of course...but I find the arm stretch required enough without extra weight. Also I would be concerned about distorting the roof...you are right about it expanding a lot more than you think it will.
I could use polystyrene balls.... It's getting the polystyrene balls into the roof which is the problem. Years ago I bought some unexpanded. You put them in a sack and steamed them...they all expanded into a big bag of beads. But they were awful to put into the bean bags I was making! A large pad of sheepswool insulation works ok ATM.
The other thing I have done is improve the seal of the roof. I have put plastic seal around the edge...the tape that you use to seal around a bath where the gap is too wide for caulking.
Also I have made some clear cover boards which sit on the top of the frames under the cover boards. I have made them from clear corydex. I think they will improve the seal above the frames for the winter months. I would have to make sure the bees have sufficient stores though because it would mean removing them if I had to feed. So I am not sure if I will use them.
The fewer drafts...the less propolis...is the theory.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Would expanding foam filler work?

www.diyfaq.organisation.UK/humour/html really expanding foam

 

[BeeJayBee]

... really expanding foam

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/humour.html#foam

I forgot to add that in retrospect rather unwisely he had set out to do this deed in the hallway of his house (the only place he later explained with sufficient headroom for the canoe - achieved by poking it up the stairwell.

Having extricated him we now were faced with the problem of a canoe construction kit embedded in a still gurgling block of foam which was now irrevocably bonded to the hall and stairs carpet as well as several banister rails and quite a lot of wallpaper.

At this point his wife and her mother came back from shopping......

 

[Tremyfro]

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/humour.html#foam

i can just image it too. It did occur to me that the expanding foam might rather over fill the roof and it might end up like a banana! Oh dear that story was so funny!

 

[Finman]

.
Black small ants love to make their nest into polystyrene insulations.