Local adaption

[Nige.Coll]

I was a member of BIBBA for a few years and other than helping them raise queens for their own apiary there was nothing offered to members.
Imports of AMM from abroad were the rule of the day and members did it regularly. I class Northern Ireland as abroad, regardless of it being part of the UK is still a foreign country as it is across a sea that flooded at the same time as the channel.

Talking to queen importers AMM are still one of the most popular types of queen that are imported and sold. One of the largest buyers of AMM is Ireland, probably explains why their genetics are similar to the French AMM, but they won't admit that openly.

 

[Apple]

Doesn't the buckfast bee (certainly as described by Br. Adam) contain a good slice of Amm genetics?!?

Probably French Amm as BA has been (mis?) quoted as saying that all the UK population af Amm were wiped out by IoW disease???

Buckfast now seems to be a term for any mongrel bee... some good some not so good... the ORIGINAL Buckfast bee must have genetically gone extinct eons ago!

Chons da

 

[mbc]

If you buy in foreign bees they might be good for a generation or two but further than that you've bought into a cycle of having to continue to buy in to maintain quality, barring running an ii programme beyond nearly every beekeeper or group or association.
Left to their own devices bee populations anywhere on these islands seem to revert to a near native bee, surely this points to the only self sustainable solution in anything but the short term being improving what we have already or throwing hands up in the air and admitting a lack of conscience for the future and buying into the continuous supply of imports treadmill.
No bee hive is an island but rather an interconnected part of a much larger landscape wide population, much like a vast net of micelium stretching invisibly for miles around, it's this larger population that needs continuous nudging in the right direction and messing up the balance with continual imports can only be counter productive in my opinion. Considered imports or propagation of specific genetics asside, buying in highly productive queens for a short term season or two crop and beekeeping experience is a selfish act if it muddles the picture for others and basically forces everyone onto the same page of dealing with a mixed bag of drone populations.

 

[North End Bees]

It's a recognised fact that a buckfast x buckfast doesn't breed true to buckfast, it's kind of in the definition of buckfast.

Yes, and even the Buckfast Abbey beekeepers don't breed 'Buckfast' bees anymore. They're working on improving the 'locally adapted' strain.

 

[Apple]

Buckthorne?

 

[North End Bees]

If you buy in foreign bees they might be good for a generation or two but further than that you've bought into a cycle of having to continue to buy in to maintain quality, barring running an ii programme beyond nearly every beekeeper or group or association.

Completely agree, and you're lucky if you get the 'or two' part of that.

 

[Nige.Coll]

Buckfast Abbey breeding program died when Brother Adam died, it's just a propaganda tool for BIBBA now.

 

[Nige.Coll]

If you buy in foreign bees they might be good for a generation or two but further than that you've bought into a cycle of having to continue to buy in to maintain quality, barring running an ii programme beyond nearly every beekeeper or group or association.

That is the same regardless of what bee you keep if your trying to keep a pure strain going.

 

[North End Bees]

Buckfast Abbey breeding program died when Brother Adam died, it's just a propaganda tool for BIBBA now.

It didn't just die because BA died. The more recent Buckfast Abbey beekeepers have accepted that the way forward is to work with nature rather than fighting to manipulate it.

 

[Swarm]

Can we please leave out words like 'propaganda'? It would be nice for those interested to have a discussion without the thread coming to a premature end yet again.

 

[North End Bees]

That is the same regardless of what bee you keep if your trying to keep a pure strain going.

Agreed. So maybe we should be trying to work with nature rather than against it?

 

[Swarm]

It didn't just die because BA died. The more recent Buckfast Abbey beekeepers have accepted that the way forward is to work with nature rather than fighting to manipulate it.

Let's not forget, too that brother Adam had nothing but praise for Amm and held their qualities higher than any other.

 

[Nige.Coll]

He spent ages looking for them in Europe after the IOW disease.

 

[Nige.Coll]

Agreed. So maybe we should be trying to work with nature rather than against it?

So all II should stop and all queen rearing and breeding should also stop and just let the bees stabilise at some point ?

 

[Nige.Coll]

So all II should stop and all queen rearing and breeding should also stop and just let the bees stabilise at some point ?

Or do you just mean any that doesn't produce near native bees ?

 

[mbc]

That is the same regardless of what bee you keep if your trying to keep a pure strain going.

Well every other bee from natives, Helen Thomson did same great work mapping general bee population genetics and it clearly showed despite centuries of imports all areas had 50% plus, most 70% plus, Amm genetics in the background population, surely then this is the bee to move forwards with.
Murray McGregor admits even with his vast numbers that his bees revert to the locals within a generation or two of open mating.
If we could only better the background population of drones it would be to everyone's benefit, and the only way I can envisage success with that would be to work with the type of bee that naturally has most mating success.

 

[ChrisS]

If you haven't seen John Chambers' fascinating talk on honeybee genetics, I can heartily recommend it. See

For me at least, it explains why you can't have a true breed of bee, whether Buckfast or any other. It also explains why the second generation of locally bred queens from a bought-in hybrid can be totally 'orrible! Genetic instability, that's the key concept.

To put my cards on the table: I used to buy Ged Marshall's excellent Buckfast queens for years, then I saw John Chambers and Jo Widdicombe present at a BIBBA conference. They and Roger Patterson all have a similar message - select and rear your own queens from your best colonies (whatever 'best' means for you). I'm now 5 generations removed from my last Ged Marshall queen and I've definitely achieved some genetic stability in terms of docility and local adaptation. Sure, they are all colours from yellow to stripey and nearly black, but that's not a factor in my selection.

 

[North End Bees]

So all II should stop and all queen rearing and breeding should also stop and just let the bees stabilise at some point ?

No. I suggested we work with nature not just leave them to it. Leaving them to it can and does result in some nasty colonies. Which some beekeepers react to by importing.

The common-sense way forward would be to breed from your best stocks. Even a small apiary will have at least one colony which will fit the criteria. And local associations should be doing more to help people with only one or two hives, who requeen from outside because they don't have local support.

 

[Apple]

He spent ages looking for them in Europe after the IOW disease.

Probably because he did not want to pay the £2 ferry / Bridge fee to get in and out of Cornwall!!


Yeghes da

 

[Apple]

It didn't just die because BA died. The more recent Buckfast Abbey beekeepers have accepted that the way forward is to work with nature rather than fighting to manipulate it.

Like many other beekeepers involved in bee improvement have adopted breeding in the way of Brother Adam
Selecting and breeding from the best, perhaps bringing in stock from another apiary to provide drone flooding in an isolated location.
BA it seemed had a network of apiary keepers across Europe... and was not hindered by thoughts of importing such as Varroa mite into the South Hams!

Chons da