Kingspan Insulation in Eke

[user 819]

One doesn't have to buy celotex or kingspan brand any PIR brand is as good as another my local builder supplies mannock brand.
My colonies overwinter in Poly (Abelo BB) with diy insulated 50mm deep poly carb CB with50mm PIR infill, on top of that they also have a 25mm wooden eke with either 25mm PIR or 25mm polystyrene wrapped in foil tape.

My experimental long hive is 55mm PIR on all faces, will be the first winter with bees inside. I'm going along the lines of Philip's reasoning that higher internal humidity inhibits varroa reproduction or affects their longevity as this year nearly all but one colony have had the least varroa seen in years.

 

[user 819]

Reg's in Scotland are different from the rest of the UK, cold roofs no longer allowed on new builds /extensions and possibly any refurb/renovation may have to be changed to conform.

 

[Murox]

One doesn't have to buy celotex or kingspan brand any PIR brand is as good as another my local builder supplies mannock brand.
My colonies overwinter in Poly (Abelo BB) with diy insulated 50mm deep poly carb CB with50mm PIR infill, on top of that they also have a 25mm wooden eke with either 25mm PIR or 25mm polystyrene wrapped in foil tape.

My experimental long hive is 55mm PIR on all faces, will be the first winter with bees inside. I'm going along the lines of Philip's reasoning that higher internal humidity inhibits varroa reproduction or affects their longevity as this year nearly all but one colony have had the least varroa seen in years.

I have one long hive that has 80mm insulation all around with off thats closed most of the time. Its just done its first full season with Getty Queen. Excellent honey producer for the area, bees appear very good, content, chilled and prolific. Hive is wooden siding, breathable membrane, insulation, thin ply inner, polycarbonate crown +foil faced insulation. Haven't actually managed to find any varroa (tempting fate) at all yet. They are being vaped though as nearby hives will have some varroa.

 

[pargyle]

You are

I think it's more than that. Our house is made from panels called SIPS.(Structural Insulated panels). The PIR insulation is moulded between OSB (oriented strand board). The building regulations changed whilst the house was being built and by the time the completion certificate was issued, the 125mm thickness of solid, PIR insulation in the "warm" roof had been superseded by more stringent requirements.

You are probably right ...I think there us some leeway for older buildings being updated but certainly new builds and newish builds have much more stringent requirements...

 

[oliver90owner]

because all the condensation is going to happen on the walls at a nice warm temperature where the bees can use it,

That, IMO, is some fairly dim thinking - if any at all. Where are the bees when this water is streaming down the walls? That’s right, tightly clustered well away from the walls! With bees only consuming stores at a minimal rate, too, that will be what - about 35g/day and most will leave the hive as water vapour. Yes, it might freeze on the walls where Finman lives, or occasionally in Scotland, but not a lot in England/Wales. Those with solid floors might find them wet in spring, I suppose (yet another advantage of bottom ventilation?).

If it drains out of the hive, how much will be left when the bees need it (in spring - bees produce water, not need extra, while they are clustered. When it is warm enough for the bees to stop clustering, the walls won’t be that cold, should not be particularly wet and the outer frames should not be mouldy from all that water throughout the winter.

Certainly better for moisture to leave the hive by the sides - that will occur because of the downward convection air flow at the hive walls. You could also calculate the approximate volume of carbon dioxide produced, as well as the volume of air required for that sugar consumption, if you are capable of doing those sort of simple sums.

 

[Moobee]

We did my son's 1913 terraced house in Sheffield some years ago (he had an attic room that served as a refrigerator in winter !) we removed the old lath and plaster ceiing (that was a job and a half !) put 50mm of Kingspan between the joists and replaced the ceiling with modern plasterboard and a skim ... unbelievable difference - with a radiator installed it's now the warmest room in the house when the heating is on whereas, previously, no amount of heating would warm it up. Made a difference to the whole house and the saving on his winter heating bills alone paid for it in about two years, let alone the benefit of having a room that could be used.

I was hoping to get it done under the Govt Green Homes Grant thingy but what a blinking joke that was. No reply to any of my requests for a quote from the 'accredited' builders and all the local guys I spoke to said it was such a mega hassle to be on the scheme, they gave up trying to do the paperwork! Will see if it gets resurrected in a more user friendly version, if not, might have to bite the bullet and just get it done....

 

[Moobee]

because all the condensation is going to happen on the walls at a nice warm temperature where the bees can use it,

That, IMO, is some fairly dim thinking - if any at all. Where are the bees when this water is streaming down the walls? That’s right, tightly clustered well away from the walls! With bees only consuming stores at a minimal rate, too, that will be what - about 35g/day and most will leave the hive as water vapour. Yes, it might freeze on the walls where Finman lives, or occasionally in Scotland, but not a lot in England/Wales. Those with solid floors might find them wet in spring, I suppose (yet another advantage of bottom ventilation?).

If it drains out of the hive, how much will be left when the bees need it (in spring - bees produce water, not need extra, while they are clustered. When it is warm enough for the bees to stop clustering, the walls won’t be that cold, should not be particularly wet and the outer frames should not be mouldy from all that water throughout the winter.

Certainly better for moisture to leave the hive by the sides - that will occur because of the downward convection air flow at the hive walls. You could also calculate the approximate volume of carbon dioxide produced, as well as the volume of air required for that sugar consumption, if you are capable of doing those sort of simple sums.

I sometimes find, if I left it in for a week to monitor, the varroa board is full of water and at first I thought it was rain getting in.... and then figured out it was the condensation.

 

[Curly green finger's]

We did my son's 1913 terraced house in Sheffield some years ago (he had an attic room that served as a refrigerator in winter !) we removed the old lath and plaster ceiing (that was a job and a half !) put 50mm of Kingspan between the joists and replaced the ceiling with modern plasterboard and a skim ... unbelievable difference - with a radiator installed it's now the warmest room in the house when the heating is on whereas, previously, no amount of heating would warm it up. Made a difference to the whole house and the saving on his winter heating bills alone paid for it in about two years, let alone the benefit of having a room that could be used.

My hole house has been cladded with 100mm insulation externally, loft got converted into mezanene type bedrooms for the children with insulation..
One problem wind, through drafts living on an exposed hill, the warmest parts of the house are the bedrooms..
Does anyone still use door curtains?
I try and put them up when SWMBO is in a compliant mood.

 

[Jules59]

I put 50mm of Kingspan on top of the CB in my WBC hives.
I was wondering whether to block the air gap between the top box and the top lift all the way round with some foam insulation to stop air circulating up into the roof space. Would this be detrimental in any way ?

 

[pargyle]

I put 50mm of Kingspan on top of the CB in my WBC hives.
I was wondering whether to block the air gap between the top box and the top lift all the way round with some foam insulation to stop air circulating up into the roof space. Would this be detrimental in any way ?

With a WBC it was traditional to fill the space between the lifts and the hives with straw or other insulating material in winter - bear in mind they were invented by William Broughton Carr (a good Yorkshireman) for the viscious winters that used to be characteristic in Yorkshire. To be honest, in the midlands, you don't get the winters we used to get up North so I rather suspect that you will have enough with your 50mm of Kingspan above the crownboard without adding further insulation - but .. you have more than one hive - try it with one and see how you get on ? The things that adding insulation brings to a hive is that they eat less of their stores and they tend to build up quicker in spring ... you have the chance to compare on a side by side basis.

 

[krennie]

Can I ask as a new beekeeper ( this is my first hive and my first winter!) when should we be thinking of putting the kingspan insulation in the roof, above the crown board/ of the National? am also thinking of cladding the hive itself with a dovetailed? sleeve of kingspan.
And then a sheet of insulation under a solid floor or leave the mesh floor?
This leads me on to another question re: bedding down the bees for the winter...not sure about timescale. So many questions!!!

 

[pargyle]

Insulation all the year round is good... don't bother closing off the mesh floor make sure there are no holes in the crownboard and insulation above the crown board is the most important... if you have timber hives a jacket for winter is good... Dani will link photos of hers ..p

 

[Murox]

Can I ask as a new beekeeper ( this is my first hive and my first winter!) when should we be thinking of putting the kingspan insulation in the roof, above the crown board/ of the National? am also thinking of cladding the hive itself with a dovetailed? sleeve of kingspan.
And then a sheet of insulation under a solid floor or leave the mesh floor?
This leads me on to another question re: bedding down the bees for the winter...not sure about timescale. So many questions!!!

Just place a square of 50mm insulation inside the roof and leave it there forever.
read this thread/posting and see the images in post 45.

 

[user 819]

Can I ask as a new beekeeper ( this is my first hive and my first winter!) when should we be thinking of putting the kingspan insulation in the roof, above the crown board/ of the National? am also thinking of cladding the hive itself with a dovetailed? sleeve of kingspan.
And then a sheet of insulation under a solid floor or leave the mesh floor?
This leads me on to another question re: bedding down the bees for the winter...not sure about timescale. So many questions!!!

If highly insulating moisture will collect somewhere usually on a cooler surface, make the CB/space above it the most insulated place and then moisture can form and run down the walls. One will need somewhere for that moisture to go so some ventilation on the bottom of the hive, it doesn't gave to be a full OMF as part will do. Another mod to a stand is to have a skirt around the top edge to prevent drafts directly across the mesh floor. I have done this since day one of incorporating mesh floors. The skirt can be part of the design in timber or pin/fix one to the top of stand legs, ideal for this is 100/150mm builders DPC.

 

[Sayle]

because all the condensation is going to happen on the walls at a nice warm temperature where the bees can use it,

That, IMO, is some fairly dim thinking - if any at all. Where are the bees when this water is streaming down the walls? That’s right, tightly clustered well away from the walls!

Leaving aside that you started with an insult, and so this is merely a rebuttal rather than an attempt to change your opinion, if your hive is well-insulated the bees don't cluster at all until the weather is truly and viciously cold (I read -20C in the literature). It's a survival mechanism, not a necessary part of life in their natural habitat. Last winter I looked under the insulation and through the polycarb crown board almost every day and made notes to get data on just that, and I never saw the bees clustered. Ever. Including when it was below freezing.

 

[krennie]

Insulation all the year round is good... don't bother closing off the mesh floor make sure there are no holes in the crownboard and insulation above the crown board is the most important... if you have timber hives a jacket for winter is good... Dani will link photos of hers ..p

thankyou that is really helpful. I look forward to seeing pics.
Also, I have a framed polycarbonate 'quilt' - should this remain above the eke with fondant and under the roof? A friend who is a specialist in HUMAN central heating, suggested drilling tiny 4mm holes around the edge of the plastic sheet before leaving it there, for ventilation purposes. But I thought the bees may well fill the holes anyway with propolis, but I suppose then they are then in control and could regulate the heating over the winter?

 

[user 819]

Bees don't need top venting, pointless them having a nice cosy winter home only for the heat to be lost. Less heat loss less stores used up to replace the lost heat, top venting is counter productive.
Bees aren't human.

 

[Erichalfbee]

. Dani will link photos of hers ..p

Paint them though

 

[Swarm]

I posted this a while ago, bees opened up their own top ventilation. Changed the Abelo poly roof due to Pigeon problems so they are back to a Cedar roof and no insulation. The hole is still fully open so who am I to argue, it'll be interesting to see if they seal it back up.

 

[BitterleyBee]

I was hoping to get it done under the Govt Green Homes Grant thingy but what a blinking joke that was. No reply to any of my requests for a quote from the 'accredited' builders and all the local guys I spoke to said it was such a mega hassle to be on the scheme, they gave up trying to do the paperwork! Will see if it gets resurrected in a more user friendly version, if not, might have to bite the bullet and just get it done....

talk to your local district or unitary council about the 'LADS2' Local Authority Delivery Scheme that the Government is giving large sums of money to councils for wall insulation, air source heat pumps and stuff like that. EPC needs to be D rating or lower. grants are up to £10k. there are some challenges, the installer needs to be TrustMark registered and there are not loads of those out there. Also costs for typical external wall insulation has shot up. used to be about £8k for a semi, now more like £13k. opportunism as well as genuine material and contractor cost increases. still worth trying to see what you can get.