Just remind me why people have carnies?

[meidel]

Meidel

Did they come as a Nuc of Bees or was it a 2lb package with a caged queen?, hopefully he wont be too disheartened with carnies and stop beekeeping

Yeap a 4 frame nuc of bees on standard national. I don't think he's disheartened at all and all things considered they only began swarming in June like everybody else's bees (unlike others we know but it's all been a sharp learning curve and we'll do better next year, won't we) At least the prime swarm of those bees are now in a 14 x 12 box.

 

[madasafish]

I am on 3rd Generation carnies. Not seen another honey bee around although there are two hives within 1/2 mile.

Mine are very good natured like 1st generation except one hive gets stroppy in bad weather.(Have requeened it)

 

[Into the lions den]

All this stuff about aggresive carniolans does get a bit tiresome. Give a dog a bad name and it smells type of stuff, much of it attributable directly to the OPINIONS of a tiny number of authors, and quite a few people who had a nasty colony and were told it was a carnie cross. Only a few who actually have had such an experience, and not much research done into the subject ( bar Ruttner, but even his sample size was not big.).

Have had carniolans from NZ, USA, Australia, Greece, Slovenia and France. The average temperament of the crosses of all of these has been from vastly superior to to no worse than, our local dark bees. The Greek and the Slovenian were the most likely to give a cross with feisty tendencies, but nothing we would call truly nasty.

First they tell you the crosses are nasty...........
When they are not they say its the second cross thats bad.............
When they are fine too they say that it can crop up at any time.............
When you have gone 5 or 6 generations down the line, and you get bees that are similar to the local stock (could be as little as 3 to 6% carnie by then) .............then they say......'told you so, the crosses are nasty'.

Been down this road so many times...........have experience with in excess of 10000 crossed queens between carniolan and local A.m.m. type stock...................the crosses are usually just an intermediate in every way between the introduced stock and the local stock with which the queens mate.

So, as the carnica blood gets more and more dilute we get.......and this is fact rather than just opinion, our living depends on such information...........changes in the stock that means we need fresh blood regularly.

Vigour and colony power decline.
Production declines.
Disease susceptibility increases.
Swarming increases.
Temperament declines.
Wintering performance stays constant.
Food requirement stays fairly

Everything reverts in time back to the local normal ( which is basically largely unimproved A.m.m. type stock ), and breeding efforts tend, if open mating used, to revert back to that type of bee in surprisingly few generations. You would be pushed to tell them apart after four crossings, sometimes less.


ps...the above are. of course, generalisations.................in all random recombinations of genetics you get sporadic outliers that show characteristics outwith the normal range expected.

 

[Poly Hive]

Indeed as the most foul colony I have ever had the misfortune to own came from a "reputable" breeder.

PH

 

[mbc]

Have had carniolans from NZ, USA, Australia, Greece, Slovenia and France. .

I can easily understand why such a history would lead to staunch defending of carni imports

 

[DorsetB]

I got 2 x Carnie Queens just over a year ago to try out. The main reason? I was intrigued by the fact that virtually every time someone mentioned Carnies, there was invariably a Pavlovian response about swarms and nasty crosses.

The first year they were amazingly productive, totally docile and incredibly quiet on the comb, virtually no smoke required.

This year they were ...amazingly productive, totally docile and incredibly quiet on the comb, virtually no smoke required.

...except that I did miss a couple of QCs so they swarmed. I caught the swarms and "allowed" the queens to mate with local drones and no doubt some of my own Carniolian drones. So far so good.

All the hives produced lots of QCs, the biggest count was 9 on one frame in May. These were removed, put in nucs, and again mated with whatever was to hand.

These nucs have now built up very quickly: they have more stores and more brood than my other nucs (Greeks, which I will not get again, and local mongrels).

The only time I have been stung is when I have squished one by accident or trapped it between my hive tool and the palm of my hand.

They are a joy to work with, are less grumpy than my other strains on a bad day, are far more tolerant of a lack of nectar flow, and are always the first out of their hive in the morning.

As mentioned above, their cappings are snow white and very delicate.

I noticed on my first inspection this year that 4 out of 6 Carnie hives had brood nests the size of my palm on one side of the comb only, yet they quickly overtook the others.

Winter stores were hardly used. uneaten b/b frames of stores were dated and removed from the hive and put in the freezer, and replaced with foundation, which helped minimise swarming.

The key with Carnies is regular inspection (weekly, without fail) and plenty of space. They have to be kept busy.

One thing I learnt which alarmed me this year is that the Queens went off lay at the drop of a hat as soon as the weather turned, which in retrospect makes perfect sense.

Nastiness? None yet, ask me again next year: then again any strain can get nasty over time.

Will I get more? Definitely. Would I recommend them: definitely.
Beginner's bees: why not, no more/less than any other type, although I would say that if you keep them on National frames they will almost definitely swarm. You need at least brood and a half. I think there was a thread on here a while back called "Is it possible to be cruel to bees" (or something similar) and my answer would be "Yes, keeping Carniolians on national frames"

 

[Into the lions den]

I can easily understand why such a history would lead to staunch defending of carni imports

lol.....and I even forgot Hawaii


seriously though, I need the vigour, and have tried lots of different lines of varying races, and good carnica top the lot.

A.m.m. are far from last on my list, second favourite in fact................last equal would be either iberica or sicula...................go for you like attack dogs, black as black......make A.m.m. look only mildly black..........and swarm? A guy I knew had some iberica stock, and when we looked at them they had a few queen cells, maybe 20 or so. we knocked them down and then took the second comb out of the nest..lol

Started counting only after comb 3.............and took out another 186.......seriously 186 cells! the rest of his colonies were not so bad for cells but they were pretty nasty bees, and they continued with swarm cells right through to mid September, long after other strains were settled down. Bad bad bees, but they DO look like classic A.m.m. when you see them. gorgeous uniform black bees, big bodied, cool weather fliers, with no sign of any light hues in them. Have seen some sicula in England too. Similar habits. Smaller bees but also drew huge numbers of cells.

Someone i know has a colony locally that turned nasty, but were very black, and following the usual teachings, assumed carnie drones had got in on the act, but the description (in particular the blackness) sounds more as if some iberica were involved, and one guy locally had a few.


ps...............the list of carnica sources might be long, but many of these were small numbers and a long time ago. Favourites are the NZ ones and while still available way back, Sue Cobey's ones while she was still a breeder before going into academia, which will be late 1980's at Vaca Valley Apiaries in California.

 

[iand]

Ok mine are the Alpine strain propogated in NZ.

Not fed anything since winter feed came off.

Not being touched by the colonies as they are getting enough day to day. Yes in this weather.

Quietest bees I have ever known. They sit on the comb and just get on with life. Sting? Very rarely unless caught.

Swarmy? Not desperately. If given the 2nd brood box it seems to keep them happy.

Some of mine are 2nd generation and I can barely tell the difference.

The acid test, would I buy them again? With out a shadow of a doubt.

Oh and lovely cappings too.

PH

Summer honey recently taken off, overall not far short of last year for honey.

The oldest 2009 Q's have been replaced this year, such was their desire to swarm/or my efforts to stop them?
This years production Q's would be 3rd Generation, with the follow up generation just having their 1st brood emerging, looking OK so far.
In fact comparing any of them compared with the bees I 1st started with, these are pussycats, and a joy to work with.
So the the selection process will continue, weeding out any undesirables.

It was the ability to go out and get honey when the the weather was poor, (which is our apparently our normal weather pattern 75% of the time for the OSR crop) which first impressed me.

Buy them again, if from the same breeding source definitely.

 

[Poly Hive]

That last comment is the critical one. It is the source and lineage that is so important.

PH

 

[Skyhook]

and in my own experience the second generation are bitches from hell!

And there have been threads that say the same about buckfasts and Amm- and probably Italians, if you dig deep enough.

I think you just have to accept that whatever you start with, unless you have enough bees to flood the area with drones, future generations will be unpredictable, and there does seem to be evidence that first crosses can be bad- but no worse for carnie than anything else.

As for swarming- crowding is one of the natural triggers for swarming, if you keep any strain in a hive thats too small they will swarm.

 

[Stiffy]

And there have been threads that say the same about buckfasts and Amm- and probably Italians, if you dig deep enough.

I think you just have to accept that whatever you start with, unless you have enough bees to flood the area with drones, future generations will be unpredictable, and there does seem to be evidence that first crosses can be bad- but no worse for carnie than anything else.

As for swarming- crowding is one of the natural triggers for swarming, if you keep any strain in a hive thats too small they will swarm.

I have tried so called AMM and indeed have a 2009 queen still laying well and very productive. This hive is fairly good tempered but her offspring were really nasty and I mean 'reeeeeeally' nasty and would cover you in bees from head to toe, I dont rear from this hive and she is kept away from from t'other hives.
I switched to Buckfast 'types' and chose two breeders for my original stock, one line produces true to type and is now the basis for most of my hives, relatively nice bees but like most do have their moments. The other line was not so nice and could get very tetchy and follow! Naturally I am now rearing from the good ones and these form the basis of my bees.
My very first hive was a carnie but my inexperience really showed as I lost them due to swarming in the first year, I have a new (isolated) apiary site for next year which is close to a footpath and am tempted to try Carnies again for this site. The NZ queens seem to have good reviews but would want to buy from a reputable dealer , any recommendations (if allowed)please PM me?
All the best
S

 

[meidel]

Hi as I mentioned in the first post and as advertised on their website, we've got the carnies on our apiary and they've been quite good bees - started as overwintered 4 frame on standard nuc, true they swarmed in June - but that's due to inexperience, have filled one super - all capped as of last week's inspection and second super about two thirds filled.

We've got one of their casts too and the queen mated fairly promptly after swarming but from capped brood pattern, may have mated with own drones. Still, must be reliable source as they give them to new beeks on their scheme.

 

[johnandyrob]

As I have said several times on different threads. I had seven NZ carnies on order but because of the bad mating season in NZ I didnt get them. I am sick of bad tempered bee but now cant afford to buy in queens to get something to breed from. So I like allot of beekeepers in this country will put up with bad tempered bees.

 

[scuttlefish]

I have "bees", looking forward to the day when I can i.d. sub-species on sight...

 

[Into the lions den]

I have "bees", looking forward to the day when I can i.d. sub-species on sight...

Aint we all! <G> You get a general idea, nothing more, unless you know, with some certainty, the origins.