Isolation Starvation???

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thebhoy

House Bee
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
332
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0
Location
Sutton, London
Hive Type
14x12
Number of Hives
28
Out checking on my hives today and found one that has all but died out....handful of bees and the queen is all that remains.
Looking through the frames it looks like they have isolated themselves and starved as a few frames in from where they are there was another 7 frames of stores.
Have emptied the hive of dead bees and moved frames to either side of the remaining few, I will aim to get back on Tuesday with a Mating hive and try and save the queen and what remains....if they last that long.
All other hives appear ok.

Bit gutting as will be the first Winter loss I have had since taking up beekeeping and knowing they had stores.
 
Out checking on my hives today and found one that has all but died out....handful of bees and the queen is all that remains.
Looking through the frames it looks like they have isolated themselves and starved as a few frames in from where they are there was another 7 frames of stores.
Have emptied the hive of dead bees and moved frames to either side of the remaining few, I will aim to get back on Tuesday with a Mating hive and try and save the queen and what remains....if they last that long.
All other hives appear ok.

Bit gutting as will be the first Winter loss I have had since taking up beekeeping and knowing they had stores.

bit early for starvation isolation in the "Big Smoke" as temps have been quite high 12c-14c, are you sure it is not nosemic? Did the dead have their heads in

how do you run your hive ?top Insulation ?OMF open/Closed ?top feed holes open/closed
 
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Sorry to hear that. Not nice to lose bees like that. Hope you manage to save the rest.
 
was a poly hive, 14 x 12, OMF open, plastic crown board on top and then lid.
Heads in cells for a lot, but most in heap on omf, was surprised and suspect it could be something else ... two colonies next to it were fine as were my others on another apiary and small nuc in garden. There was also a patch of capped brood on the frames....
 
Sorry to hear that. Hope its not the colony that had an holiday at my place.

Seems strange to be isolation starvation. We have really on had one or two cold days.
 
was a poly hive, 14 x 12, OMF open, plastic crown board on top and then lid.
Heads in cells for a lot, but most in heap on omf, was surprised and suspect it could be something else ... two colonies next to it were fine as were my others on another apiary and small nuc in garden. There was also a patch of capped brood on the frames....

Seems more like Nosema, than starvation, had they been slow at clearing the dead from the mesh during autumn?

Polys that i looked into recently had masses of bees all over the frame tops, almost buisness as usual rather than close clustered

pm me and send me a sample of 30 to 50 and i will test if you want
 
Hi Farbee, not the one that had the holiday in Kent, it is doing very well (or appears to be) Hope yours are all well and you had a good year.

MM have already binned them or would have taken you up on the offer, if I can get to them on Tuesday I may send a sample of what remains, I plan to make a mating hive up and try to save the queen....but seriously don't think there is much hope with only a small handful...shame to waste a queen.
They had all been tested going into Autumn and were fine but I understand when getting stressed nosema can kick in quite quickly.
It was just the fact they were split away on empty frames and had full ones next to them yet nothing on them.
My others seem fine, even a nuc that I was expecting to be struggling surprised me with the volume of bees across top of frames and quite active.
 
Hi Farbee, not the one that had the holiday in Kent, it is doing very well (or appears to be) Hope yours are all well and you had a good year.

MM have already binned them or would have taken you up on the offer, if I can get to them on Tuesday I may send a sample of what remains, I plan to make a mating hive up and try to save the queen....but seriously don't think there is much hope with only a small handful...shame to waste a queen.
They had all been tested going into Autumn and were fine but I understand when getting stressed nosema can kick in quite quickly.
It was just the fact they were split away on empty frames and had full ones next to them yet nothing on them.
My others seem fine, even a nuc that I was expecting to be struggling surprised me with the volume of bees across top of frames and quite active.

Small colonies can survive over the winter but the key to it is to make sure your emergency mini hive is very well insulated ... but ...

Was there any sign of Nosema Apis in the hive (defecation on the frames,landing board etc ?) ... if so then it's Apis.

If not then it could be Nosema Ceranae ... there is evidence that colonies that have contracted Ceranae are more susceptible to the effect of pesticides and sudden collapse is often the only visible symptom. It often is a slow build up and a slower hive (poor foragers, lower brood levels) is an early warning but not always noticeable.

One of the downsides of Ceranae is that it is less affected by heat and is more affected by cold (as you would expect when you consider where it comes from !).

So ... if it is Ceranae ... and MM's offer to do the microscopy should be taken up ASAP ... then you may be fighting a losing battle - small colonies ideally need warmth over winter ... but a colder environment will help reduce the viable spores of Ceranae ... Indeed, recent studies have shown that Ceranae spores can actually be killed by freezing (unlike Apis) but ... as the spores are in the bees gut it really won't help. The queen in a colony with Ceranae tends to be only become infected in the terminal stages of the collapse so ... earlier in the year ...introducing her to a starter colony would have been an option but it's a bit late for messing about.

There is little that can be done at this stage as there are no realistic remedies at this time of the year... Fumagillin B has been found to assist but it is fed in syrup like HM's thymol treatment but you would be lucky to get them to take down syrup now ?

Perhaps someone else will be able to advise once you know if there is Nosema there - but, it's not a good prognosis if they have it.

Lastly, there is still a lot to find out about Ceranae ... it's a lot rarer in the UK than it's cousin Apis and we don't have a full understanding of a lot of things about it ... we are not even sure how it gets transferred from bee to bee ... and it's obviously less likely to infect your other colonies as it does tend to be less easily transferred.
 
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.. Fumagillin B has been found to assist but it is fed in syrup like HM's thymol treatment but you would be lucky to get them to take syrup down now... .

If memory serves me correctly you could spray Fumagillin B solution directly onto them in emergency situations. You could try spraying thin Thymol syrup as a last resort - worth a try if there is no other option available.
 
Many thanks folks, all much appreciated.
In reality, I have no chance of saving the queen as there are too few bees, however, am always of the mindset that nothing ventured nothing gained and, for sure, any attempt is better than giving up without trying :)

A little cold spell in next two days will wipe them out for sure.
 
Just found this old post from Norton .... Can't link it as it seems to be archived ...

"Norton
2nd January 2011, 09:59 AM
Hello,
Back to the original question. I use Ambrosia fondant and I heat it up, about a kilo at a time, in a microwave oven. To this I add 20% of my own pollen and 10% soya flour (not GM), 15cc of Aloe vera juice (again my own) and for every kilo of fondant I add 1cc of a solution of 1:1 thymol and 99% pure alcohol. To the mixture I may also add, according to the season and needs, some cinnamon, lemon juice, carob juice and other additives that I think are useful.
You have to wear gloves when mixing after adding the thymol solution and just make sure you wash very well before you next urinate!
Best regards
Norton."
 
as per others - we've not had proper clustering temps yet this autumn (only a couple of mild frosts max) so you should be thinking of disease as the cause of the problem.

get the bees checked for nosema.
 
It is possible too, that varroa has killed the hive. It happens so that mites concentrate into winter bee brood and loo few viable that workers will emerge. Then summer bees die and finally there are no bees in the hive. Even big colonies will disappear during autumn. Typically there are here and there capped brood which were not able to emerge.

About nosema... If nosema has killed bees, medicine does not help any more that almost dead colony.


Evidence about varroa killed brood And the colony is so weak that it is not able to clean cells.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/scibeeimages/DWV-collapse-2.jpg

.
 
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It is possible too, that varroa has killed the hive. It happens so that mites concentrate into winter bee brood and loo few viable that workers will emerge. Then summer bees die and finally there are no bees in the hive. Even big colonies will disappear during autumn. Typically there are here and there capped brood which were not able to emerge.

About nosema... If nosema has killed bees, medicine does not help any more that almost dead colony.


Evidence about varroa killed brood And the colony is so weak that it is not able to clean cells.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/scibeeimages/DWV-collapse-2.jpg

.

Not making any claims, or ruling out the other answers but we've been discussing the large amounts of varroa in hives this year with long spell of brooding due to weather.
Finman may be on the button with this. Have you treated for varroa later on again, this Autumn, or are you one of those that is waiting for Christmas to do the Oxalic acid 'drizzle'. You may be too late with treatment, unless you are a 'leave alone' beekeeper. Just a thought as I understand you ruled out nosema with checks earlier on in the season.
Hope it works out.
 
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Is the Queen a late supercedure or mated late in the season? If insufficient Winter bees were raised it might explain the decline in colony numbers - aged foragers dying off in the tail end of Autumn.....
 
Very interesting thread. Sounds like my colony that died, only I don't know when they died as I only realised come spring when they should have been flying. Lots of stores still left and a big pile of bees on the OMF and no bees in cells. Sounds like I finally have my answer after a long time wondering.
 
Thanks again folks, have not been able to get back this week so will be going tomorrow. As bees were down to a small handful I do expect a fully dead hive tomorrow.
They had been checked for disease going into Autumn and I did two trays of apiguard September / October ...
The queen was this years.
All dead bees were to one side of the hive in a pile..as if just dropping from the frames..not spread across the floor. Likewise there were some on top of frames and on runners.....and as mentioned they did have many with heads in cells that is what made me think of isolation starvation ..the more I think of it and all the input from the members.. it looks like disease.

Will update tomorrow.
 

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