is is worth the time/effort??

[beesleybees]

Hi guys.

just bought myself 2 national beehives which only included 1 super with frames. Im in need of a few more supers and frams so Im looking at making my own to keep costs down and also give me something extra to do.

The hives ive got at the moment are a bit tatty, so was going to knock myself a few supers and maybe a brood box made from ply until i find a cheap enough cedar supplier. I will buy frame kits from ebay as I dont think i have the right equipment to make these. I have basic diy tools and a table saw. anyone see any problems with doing this? will it cost me more in the end ie time, materials

anyone have a plans that I can copy that will allow mw to fit plywood supers on the hive i have??

thanx

 

[merylvingien]

Hi beesleybees, not trying to put a dampner on your ideas, but if you need to ask the question, i would at a guess say that for you it isnt worth the time or effort IF your just looking to save a few quid and have limited tools.

To make your supers from ply your gonna need a router or be fairly competent with your table saw.
With basic tools you will be investing a "reasonable" amount of time to the project.

I would look at buying seconds from you know who.

 

[rae]

I've got a thread or two on the subject!

Cedar vs Ply. I don't think there is any point in the amateur making Cedar hives, unless you have a line on cheap Cedar. I priced making a super, and it wasn't a lot more to go to a supplier and get them flat pack. Ply is very much worth doing - you can get 5 14 x 12 broods out of an 8 x 4 sheet of ply that costs £40. Nothing to stop you making Cedar hives, just don't expect to save loads of money. 18mm ply suits all of the existing plans, no need to adapt. I use the ones on scottish bee keepers.

If it isn't going to drive you mad, you need to set up a production run. Get an 8x4 sheet and turn it into supers - about 20 of them. Setting up the table saw is the hard bit, chopping up the wood is easy.

If you haven't got a BIG table saw, and most of us haven't, get the sheets cut down when you buy them - handling an 8x4 sheet is hard. Another option is a track saw. I'm lucky enough to have a Festool saw and track which can slice up an 8x4 sheet to millimeter accuracy with little effort. Festool is pricey (but good), there are loads of other options.

A router is pretty much essential if you are going to make good copies of hives. You can get away without routing the rebates in the side walls, but you'll need a router, and small router table for the lugs. You don't need anything flash, any cheap router table and low powered router will do for machining pine.

Clamps. Lots of clamps. I need 6 to get a single 14 x12 brood body properly straight in glue up. 4 for national broods and supers.

Overall, it sounds like you could do this, the only thing you need is a router and table - which can be had for not a lot. Beware though, woodwork is addictive, and you'll be perusing bizarre machinery catalogues in no time.

 

[pbh4]

If you haven't got a BIG table saw, and most of us haven't, get the sheets cut down when you buy them - handling an 8x4 sheet is hard. Another option is a track saw. I'm lucky enough to have a Festool saw and track which can slice up an 8x4 sheet to millimeter accuracy with little effort. Festool is pricey (but good), there are loads of other options.

I made a simple jig for cutting straight lines with a hand held circular saw inspired by this video http://youtu.be/CH5dW-QcgeI Not quite FesTool convenience and quality but surprisingly effective for a few quid.

Paul

 

[oliver90owner]

there are loads of other options

a simple jig

It's called a fence? Use a straight edge clamped to the part to be cut and go.

The first thing to remember is why call it a 'fence'. Answer: It keeps things separate or keeps something contained (discontinuous and closed situations).

That leads to 'fencing' the good part so the cut cannot enter the desired object. I have seen, so often, a fence used to cut a well protected off-cut!

Even 'rough' saw cutting, followed by finishing the edge accurately with a router can be an effective option for the 'one offs' for those with limited 'tool resources'.

The main downsides are time taken for the perfect job and loss of material (an accurate saw cut only loses the blade 'kerf').

Regards, RAB

 

[SteveJ]

Get a sheet of ply from B*Q ( I know they are expensive but the cutting service is a god send) and get them to cut it into strips. First two cuts are free. Some charge for extra cuts mine doesn't. Get the ply home and use a chop saw cut it too length.
For rails I get offcuts from hardwood doors at my local timber merchants. Full door length inch wide hardwood normally about £2 each.

SteveJ

 

[pbh4]

a simple jig

It's called a fence? Use a straight edge clamped to the part to be cut and go.

The simple jig in the youtube video is a bit more than a fence - more of a fence with a step. The advantage over a simple fence is that the saw cut is guaranteed to be exactly at the edge of the jig so you can simply line it up with a pencil mark and cut. The second advantage is that it protects the job from being scuffed by the saw plate.

Paul

 

[oliver90owner]

Paul,

Yep, quite agree.

I have several saws - as in the vid, bench, jig, cross cut (chop) and radial arm - and they all get used at times, dependent on the job.

That said, I would now recommend a router as the best 'all-round' tool if there was only going to be the one power tool, if varied work up to abut 25mm was contemplated with other basic tools being manual ones.

The guy on the vid forgot to mention (but did 'sort of' but not directly later in the vid) that the fence should always be on the work side - he could have wanderered away from the fence and damaged the bulk of the sheet edge, but he could not (easily) have cut into the part that was wanted.

All I say is that with limited resources in the line of power tools, most jobs can be accommodated given a little ingenuity. I particularly like the router because quite smooth edges can be obtained without a planer. I just don't use mine enough!

Regards, RAB

 

[rae]

Certainly when processing sheets of material, I don't see any point about getting hung up on which side is "work" or "waste" - in most cases one side is the piece of work you are dealing with right now...and the other side of the cut is the piece of work you will be dealing with next. If your power tool can wander from the fence, it isn't much cop as a fence.

 

[barratt_sab]

The Scottish Beekeepers website has plans for a national, which I have attached to this post.

Several people have translated those plans into Google SketchUp models. My versions are attached in the zip file (note they are for a 14x12 BB, and you only need one of the two floor options).

I have also attached two cutting sheets, which I prepared last weekend to try to get 2 nationals and assorted bits out of two 8'x4' sheets.

I got 18mm wbp ply from a local branch of a well-known national building supplies merchant, and got them to do the big cuts for me. I have tools which can cope with the smaller cuts.

I have now completed the stands, floors, BBs and roofs, together with two nuc boxes. They are ugly, but they fit our commercially built kit.

I would echo rae's comment about addiction - I only set out to make the 2 nucs...

 

[beesleybees]

Thanx for the reply guys, really appreciate it.

If I were to follow the cutting sheet above, would this give me a standard national hive and would the plywood parts fit together to cedar? What exactly will theses plans give me ie brood box, super - how many etc

 

[Tom Bick]

Dave Cushman is also a good reference point to look at

http://www.*****************/bee/nat.html



Edited to say

Looks like you will have to google Dave Cushman go to drawings then British National Hive as it looks we don’t allow this site on the forum???

 

[plumberman]

Thanx for the reply guys, really appreciate it.

If I were to follow the cutting sheet above, would this give me a standard national hive and would the plywood parts fit together to cedar? What exactly will theses plans give me ie brood box, super - how many etc

I use 12mm ply ( 18mm ply makes a very heavy box)- this is bee proof, but you will find the outside walls don't fit flush with cedar. Not a problem.

RAE said previously that you needed a router to make up lugs etc - if you want to make one piece sections then true, but I just use a table saw to make them up as two piece sections and then glue together. Got some brood boxes been in service 2 years now and havent fallen apart.

 

[barratt_sab]

would this give me a standard national hive and would the plywood parts fit together to cedar?

These plans were drawn from the SBA plans, so should give you a standard national (albeit on 14x12).

However, you should definitely get a tape measure and measure your existing kit against the sketchup model, to check it before buying (and cutting!) plywood.

If you don't have sketchup - it is free (google it) and well worth getting hold of. The cutting plans would be impossible to follow without having looked at the sketchup model.

As Plumberman says, 18mm ply is very heavy, and you can use 12mm instead. If you want to adjust the plans for 12mm, so far as I can tell, it is just the INSIDE measurements of the boxes that matter to the bees, not the outside.

What exactly will theses plans give me ie brood box, super - how many etc

The attached pdf should give you an idea of what you'll get and what else you'll need.

Like plumberman, I used two piece sections and then glued them together to make the side rails. The pdf has two pictures showing the cross-sections you are aiming for.

You must seal the edges of the ply with PVA or similar before they get left out in the rain, otherwise they will delaminate very quickly.

I should point out that my finished results were ugly and heavy (but then so am I) and that you use these plans at your own risk!

 

[Hombre]

I think that the "In and up" floor referred to is the Kewl floor.

See this link to endinburgh Bees site for a entrance similar to dartington and kewl type under floor entrances

edinburghbeekeepers.org.uk/downloads/diy_open_mesh_floor-graham-white.pdf at the standard www.

 

[barratt_sab]

I think that the "In and up" floor referred to is the Kewl floor.

See this link to endinburgh Bees site for a entrance similar to dartington and kewl type under floor entrances

edinburghbeekeepers.org.uk/downloads/diy_open_mesh_floor-graham-white.pdf at the standard www.

That's exactly right - thanks Hombre (and thanks Graham White!).

 

[Craig1961]

OK... I can get a great deal on wood..... I want to build national hives.... ALL good news... BAD NEWS.. never picked up a router before... Could someone tell me which router bits I need to do my 18mm box joints and which bits for rebates.... I understand I will need practice... No prob getting wood for this. Will I need a jig... WTF are collets bush guides etc.

Thanks in advance.
Craig

 

[rae]

Bits - the good news is that you only need one: a 19mm straight cutter. I've got this set:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/cmt-plywood-and-mdf-grooving-cutter-set-prod20940/

...but you actually only need the big one for broods and supers. The set is pretty good if you are doing lots of ply. If you've got a line on Cedar, then you need a cutter the same width as your planks. Raise the cutter further up, and you can cut all of the hive handles.

1/2" etc - refers to the diameter of the shaft. 1/2" generally for bigger, heavier routers, if you're going to do a bit of this, go 1/2".

Router itself - loads of choice from the Festool OF2200 (a thing of mechanical beauty at £700) down to some £100 piece of Chinese tat. I'd get anything by DeWalt, Makita or Trend as sensible mid-range choices.

Bearings etc - no beehive cuts are bearing guided. I would get a router table though. Something like this:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-axminster-trade-router-table-prod780541/

is more than adequate. Make sure the router fits the table. Free hand cutting is always fraught for beginners (and to be honest, more experienced users as well!)

 

[beeboybee]

where is the sketchup file from?

 

[oliver90owner]

down to some £100 piece of Chinese tat.

If you can put up with an 8mm shank, 30 quid gets you one on special offer from L*dl, along with a selection of cutters. Probably Chinese tat, but you can't easily beat the price, just for a starter, even if you decide to upgrade later. One I tried (wanted a plunge router) has not expired yet and now gets more use than my fixed base machine.

I'm not in the same league as rae.

RAB