Insulation?

[pargyle]

I don't insulate my hives. I think that insulation inceases the heat in the brood nest which causes the bees to use more stores.
I prefer to feed my hives if they get light. I prefer to breed from the hives that have not needed feeding.

Just the opposite actually ,,, if you keep them warm they don't spend as much energy heating the hive and they eat less of their stores ...I rarely have to feed my bees and often there are frames of honey left in the brood box in spring ... but each to their own. I'm happy for you to fly in the face of science .. I'm an avid supporter of the Flat Earth Society.

 

[oliver90owner]

I’ve often removed stores in the spring to provide more brooding space. Only once seriously caught out by a colony which neatly consumed all the stores from the same end of each comb - and were brooding on all, or nearly all, the frames on the warmer side of the hive. That was a Dartington where the insulation had come loose on one side of the hive.

Sugar only supplies energy for the bees. Most of that energy is used up in keeping the hive warm - or at least the cluster at 8 degrees or so. Crawling around in the hive does not consume a great deal of extra energy. They generate extra heat by flexing flight muscles as necessary (so if the hive is warm enough - within reason - the bees will not need to warm it any further. They are not stupid so do not waste their valuable stores on unnecessary heating, like a lot of humans do.

Letting all the heat (as in ‘warmth’) escape quickly (all of it escapes eventually - understood by most, but easily demonstrated, for those that don’t, by simply turning off the heating in winter) means more heat needs to be generated from stores to maintain the cluster temperature. Heat tends to rise to the crown board by air convection currents and disappears from the hive quite quickly through an uninsulated crownboard and much more quickly if beekeeper leaves gaping holes in the crownboard - or stupidly place matchsticks under the edges of the crown board. Analgous to running the central heating while keeping all the widows open. Far, far better to provide extra ventilation, if thought necessary, with matchstick (or similar - I used nails) between brood box and solid floor.

OMFs provide far more ventilation than required but best left unfettered to avoid detritus building up just beneath the bees. I suppose the worst scenario is a howling gale under an OMF with a gaping hole at the top of the stack. Some beekeepers have some funny ideas of how the bees would prefer their home - given the choice.

 

[gmonag]

Just the opposite actually ,,, if you keep them warm they don't spend as much energy heating the hive and they eat less of their stores ...I rarely have to feed my bees and often there are frames of honey left in the brood box in spring ... but each to their own. I'm happy for you to fly in the face of science .. I'm an avid supporter of the Flat Earth Society.

That is only true as long as the ambient temperaure is below 4C. A cluster at 4C uses the minimum stores. Warmer than that, the bees become more active and consume more stores. At less than 4C ambient, the bees need more energy from stores to maintain the core temperature.

See Randy Oliver's article:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/understanding-colony-buildup-and-decline-part-13a/

 

[pargyle]

That is only true as long as the ambient temperaure is below 4C. A cluster at 4C uses the minimum stores. Warmer than that, the bees become more active and consume more stores. At less than 4C ambient, the bees need more energy from stores to maintain the core temperature.

See Randy Oliver's article:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/understanding-colony-buildup-and-decline-part-13a/

Much as I respect Randy Oliver I think that his study was polarised on hives that were not properly insulated .. In a well inulated colony clustering, unless temperatures fall well below freezing, does not happen - the bees remain active in the hive and DO NOT consume more stores than when they are clustered. It is clustering and the energy required to heat the cluster that consumes more stores ...

 

[Erichalfbee]

Much as I respect Randy Oliver I think that his study was polarised on hives that were not properly insulated .. In a well inulated colony clustering, unless temperatures fall well below freezing, does not happen - the bees remain active in the hive and DO NOT consume more stores than when they are clustered. It is clustering and the energy required to heat the cluster that consumes more stores ...

That’s what I have found consistently
I often look under the roof in winter. We have had minus five here so far and the bees are still walking around the top frames.
I’ll report back on stores when I look in.

 

[pargyle]

That’s what I have found consistently
I often look under the roof in winter. We have had minus five here so far and the bees are still walking around the top frames.
I’ll report back on stores when I look in.

Yep ... me too ... in low temperatures and all times of the day and night - active bees. I haven't opened mine yet but I can tell from the weight and see through the crownboards that there are capped frames of honey still in there.

 

[gmonag]

Dani and Phillip, I respect your opinions here and cannot argue with your observations. The danger is that we take an anthropomorphic view. We are warm-blooded and feel most comfortable when the ambient temperature (at our skin, so under any clothes) is close to body temp. Bees are cold blooded and so don't feel the cold the same way we do. They do have the ability to generate heat by exercising their wing muscles, but that is used in combination with the insulating properties of the bee cluster. The ambient temperature in the hive, outside the cluster is at ambient. That means that the insulation value of the hive is not relevant, as insulation only works if there is a temperature gradient across it.

According to Moeller 1978:
"At the outer periphery of the roughly spherical cluster occupying the interspaces of the combs, the bees are tightly packed to form an insulat ing band or shell. The outer edge of this cluster never falls below 43°F (6.11° C) (10) and is usually in the mid-50° (12-13°) range. If the body temperature of a bee falls to 42° (5.56°), it loses the power of motion and will drop. At 28.5° (1.94°) the body tissue freezes solid. Thus, to maintain life the temperature cannot go below 43° (6.11°). In the remainder of the hive space not occupied by bees, the tempera ture falls just as low as the outside. Colonies that build combs in such exposed places as on limbs of trees cannot withstand the cold, piercing winds of northern climates and will not survive. Thus, the main purpose for seeking the confines of a cavity seems to be wind protection."

 

[Swarm]

I've just had a quick squint into thirty hives this morning and twenty odd yesterday. Various levels of insulation, some with none and a few soaking wet old wooden roofs. The story is pretty much the same in all of them with regards to stores, they still have plenty and it's not hindering build up, queens have laying space. If you are pulling stores frames in Spring, perhaps they were too well provisioned for Winter.

 

[pargyle]

Dani and Phillip, I respect your opinions here and cannot argue with your observations. The danger is that we take an anthropomorphic view. We are warm-blooded and feel most comfortable when the ambient temperature (at our skin, so under any clothes) is close to body temp. Bees are cold blooded and so don't feel the cold the same way we do. They do have the ability to generate heat by exercising their wing muscles, but that is used in combination with the insulating properties of the bee cluster. The ambient temperature in the hive, outside the cluster is at ambient. That means that the insulation value of the hive is not relevant, as insulation only works if there is a temperature gradient across it.

According to Moeller 1978:
"At the outer periphery of the roughly spherical cluster occupying the interspaces of the combs, the bees are tightly packed to form an insulat ing band or shell. The outer edge of this cluster never falls below 43°F (6.11° C) (10) and is usually in the mid-50° (12-13°) range. If the body temperature of a bee falls to 42° (5.56°), it loses the power of motion and will drop. At 28.5° (1.94°) the body tissue freezes solid. Thus, to maintain life the temperature cannot go below 43° (6.11°). In the remainder of the hive space not occupied by bees, the tempera ture falls just as low as the outside. Colonies that build combs in such exposed places as on limbs of trees cannot withstand the cold, piercing winds of northern climates and will not survive. Thus, the main purpose for seeking the confines of a cavity seems to be wind protection."

It's old and it's flawed science .... even in 1972 there were beekeepers who recognised the benefit of well insulated hives and how these have a beneficial effect on colonies overwintering ... but it takes a long time for some beekeepers to catch up ... Celotex and Kingspan were not widely available in 1978 and poly hives were in their infancy but if they had been I suspect that more would have been using them now ... I really wish people would stop perpetuating the myth that keeping bees cold is good for them.

Bill Bielby .. a time served, thinking, long time, Yorkshire beekeeper said in 1972 ... "There is no such thing as too much insulation in beekeeping" and "The best way to overwinter bees sucessfully is to keep them as draught free and as warm as possible". Here we are nearly 70 years on and it still has not sunk in ....

 

[gmonag]

OK, so notwithstanding that, when do bees consume least stores; in the cluster or when active?

 

[pargyle]

OK, so notwithstanding that, when do bees consume least stores; in the cluster or when active?

When they are free to move around the hive - they will consume less stores than when they are tightly clustered and trying to keep warm. The wing vibration consumes much more energy than simply wandering around doing 'normal' bee jobs or resting. Where's Derek Mitchell when you want him .. could someone email him and tell him he's needed - gone off in a huff because people don't understand or accept his science ...

 

[gmonag]

I cannot accept that. Otherwise the bees would run around all winter to save stores! Minimum stores consumption is at 4C ambient, in a cluster.

I supect that when you take a peek through the clear crownboard, in cold weather, and see bees moving around, you are actually looking at the centre of the cluster. Remember the cluster is a roughly spherical, hollow shell. If the cluster is at the top of the frames, you will see into the centre of that sphere.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I cannot accept that. Otherwise the bees would run around all winter to save stores! Minimum stores consumption is at 4C ambient, in a cluster.

I supect that when you take a peek through the clear crownboard, in cold weather, and see bees moving around, you are actually looking at the centre of the cluster. Remember the cluster is a roughly spherical, hollow shell. If the cluster is at the top of the frames, you will see into the centre of that sphere.

They don’t run around in an uninsulated box.
It doesn’t matter what you accept. Those of us that run both poly and wood do.

 

[Lottie]

For last few seasons I have put 3 old double glazing panels around the hives, they lean in a bit over the stand and have a weighted cord around the top to avoid gales moving them. This maintains some ventilation, reduces heat loss (especially those cold winds) and allows solar gain when there is any sun. I remove them when the days are hotting up and replace with Autumn chill, so they are on for something like Nov to April here in Kent.
They also have some wooden louvres I knocked up on the sunny southern aspects to allow low winter and morning sun to the hive but minimise midday heat. It is all capped off with some discarded large square tiles that overhang everything and reduce drips so it is rare that water gets to the hives except in summer (when that overhang and an air gap below the tile keep the hive cooler all day).

I suppose this is somewhat like the 2 layer trad hives but offers the solar gain and removability. I have not needed to top up stores or feed sugars at all leaving them a fair measure of the fruits of their efforts. Obviously my bee keeping is more hobbyist and for their benefit rather than maximum honey yield!

The edges of the double glazed can be sharp so I run an old slit in half bicycle inner tube around the edge which provides safety, grip and seals draughts (I do add triangular pieces of wood at some corners to fill any large gaps where panels do not meet neatly).
There seems to be a lot of replacing old double glazing so it is easy to pick up plenty of suitably sized panels by asking a few owners when I spot a pile in the driveway - or local (re)glazers.

Last tile use: suitable 18x12" tiles placed sideways fit just below my entrance landings and prevent underflying (and reduce cold winds under the hive when the floor is open). I asked the manageress at local tile shop and they normally have a pallet of end of line samples or slight damages out the back I can pick through, protective gloves advised...

Ohhh, of course I also use under lid insulation - normally the wool in plastic bag panels that come with some food deliveries are perfect.

I quite like the Heath Robinson look!

I've started using those wool insulators that come with Hallo Fresh and Gousto too, they are a perfect fit.

 

[Sayle]

I cannot accept that. Otherwise the bees would run around all winter to save stores! Minimum stores consumption is at 4C ambient, in a cluster.

I supect that when you take a peek through the clear crownboard, in cold weather, and see bees moving around, you are actually looking at the centre of the cluster. Remember the cluster is a roughly spherical, hollow shell. If the cluster is at the top of the frames, you will see into the centre of that sphere.

Yeah, no. Before my wireless thermometer corked out, a very weak swarm going into winter (2 seams of bees! 2!) was maintaining an ambient temperature 2-4C higher than the outside...on the dummy board 5 frames away and six inches down from the roof. When the temperature was down around freezing I tilted up the roof edge and stuck my hand on the crown board to find it positively toasty under its insulation, and a quick glance revealed bees wandering over the frames with zero signs of clustering.

The primary driver of store consumption by bees isn't moving around, it's transforming all that sugar into heat through the insanely wasteful process of using their wing muscles. Which they do in the cluster. To produce heat. Which they need to live.

So your comment of 'they would run around all winter to save stores' is very strange. Bees running around in winter are bees in an environment where they don't need to be using their stores much at all. They feel the hive is warm enough for them. What you're saying seems to be approaching the winter stores from the wrong direction. They aren't hibernating - there's not some magical temperature where they feel the need to eat less. Stores in winter isn't food in human terms, it's firewood. Make sure your windows are closed and the house is well insulated and you don't have to use so much of it. Translated into human terms what you are saying is 'at 4C you can keep the fire burning low and use the least wood' and what we are saying is 'insulate properly and you don't need to light the fire (ie, cluster) in the first place'.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yeah, no. Before my wireless thermometer corked out, a very weak swarm going into winter (2 seams of bees! 2!) was maintaining an ambient temperature 2-4C higher than the outside...on the dummy board 5 frames away and six inches down from the roof. When the temperature was down around freezing I tilted up the roof edge and stuck my hand on the crown board to find it positively toasty under its insulation, and a quick glance revealed bees wandering over the frames with zero signs of clustering.

The primary driver of store consumption by bees isn't moving around, it's transforming all that sugar into heat through the insanely wasteful process of using their wing muscles. Which they do in the cluster. To produce heat. Which they need to live.

So your comment of 'they would run around all winter to save stores' is very strange. Bees running around in winter are bees in an environment where they don't need to be using their stores much at all. They feel the hive is warm enough for them. What you're saying seems to be approaching the winter stores from the wrong direction. They aren't hibernating - there's not some magical temperature where they feel the need to eat less. Stores in winter isn't food in human terms, it's firewood. Make sure your windows are closed and the house is well insulated and you don't have to use so much of it. Translated into human terms what you are saying is 'at 4C you can keep the fire burning low and use the least wood' and what we are saying is 'insulate properly and you don't need to light the fire (ie, cluster) in the first place'.

Who ARE you?
That is a really sensible post

 

[Sayle]

Who ARE you?
That is a really sensible post

I have no great qualification in either beekeeping or the sciences, but I did my (entirely useless) bachelors in biology and I've been consulting as much of the science as I can find with my beekeeping. But having been trained to look at things from a scientific viewpoint and knowing how to find material in the field helps a lot for finding information. I can't claim any brilliance on my part. I'm standing on the shoulders of giants and probably making them wince as I butcher and misunderstand what they discovered. But asking yourself why X means Y is a very useful skill that does have to be trained, since it isn't normal instinct. @gmonag is citing his sources and he's right - cluster consumption is indeed lowest at the ambient 4C, after which point it savagely ramps up as temperature drops. But that is based on the assumption of the interior of the hive being the same temperature as the outside, and the whole point of insulation is defeating that premise. The science no longer holds in that case - or rather we have improved our situation to where that science is no longer relevant, and the bees will be much more comfortable for it.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Who ARE you?

I think he's DerekM's love-child!

CVB

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think he's DerekM's love-child!

CVB

I knew somebody would know

 

[pargyle]

I knew somebody would know

Looks like we've found a replacement ...