Insulation: I don't get it!

Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum

Help Support Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
On this forum there is a small cohort of individuals who believe that you cannot have too much insulation.

I think you might find a cohort of one, who runs around two thousand colonies, that has changed to better insulated hives and, if not already, would only run with the better insulated hive type.

I would never ever say one cannot have too much insulation. Within reason, insulation is good and costs very little. Replacing one dead queen in spring (assuming no bees were required to be bought in at the same time) could pay for all the insulation needed above the crownboards for ten hives, maybe more. Payback is likely less than two years, even if no losses were incurred (ie - less winter stores consumed).

*ells bells, they knew about this over a hundred years as go, yet there are some dinosaurs amongst us who would prefer their colonies to consume more stores, lose far more heat energy from the hives than necessary and, topping that, advocate others (with weaker colonies?) to risk having them die through the cold (or dampness).

Remember, too, there are those who would twist the colony winter loss figure by use of inappropriate statistics. Think here - what is the average colony loss of three beekeepers, one with 0% losses, one with 50% losses and the third with 100% losses. The answer is NOT the average of their losses (50% in this example) unless they all have the same number of colonies!

One thing is certain, for the one colony owner the difference between 0 and 100 percent is the loss of one colony and that single loss can be down to not adding a quid's worth of insulation above the crownboard. Go figure, for yourself, the common sense in that! The obvious answer, btw, is zilch.

On top of that, they are no longer a beekeeper and would need a whole new colony to start again. Now, is it really worth them taking the risk and not insulating at all? I think not.
 
What about 12-13, I think you will find a lot of beekeepers lost quite a few hives and some lost them all

and some lost none! (even without insulation, or top insulation only... all on OMFs)
 
Phil
You have reported on the past that you have been keeping fairly extensive records of hive temperature and humidity. Several sources suggest that by not insulating, the bees have a source of water in the condensation that forms on the sides and/or top of the hive. How can this argument be countered - is there any evidence, based on actual measurements of temperature and humidity, that bees in insulated hives suffer from thirst/lack of water?

Maybe if the bees are generally warmer in an insulated hive, they can make short flights for taking water without succumbing to the cool temperatures outside. Discuss.

CVB
bees can access liquid water where a surface is below the dew point thus in any insulated hive thiswill occur below the bees or on a cold spot e.g. near the lugs.
Having extensive cold surfaces at the same height of the bees will continually remove water vapour and water from the bees, thus creating a need for water.
A cold hive might have damp wet walls but it is actually dessicating the bees.

If you think your insulated bees are not getting enough water in winter, put an empty brood box underneath this will provide lower temperature surfaces which the bees can access.
 
I don't get it either, but I won't criticize. If you believe that, in some way extra insulation helps, then by all means do it.

But, I keep bees where the temperatures fall to the -20s˚F and stay below 0F for days at a time. There may be no cleansing flights from Sometime in November to sometime in March or early April. I do insulate the crown board to reduce condensation, but no added insulation around the hive. My bees winter well. Last winter, my bees suffered a 12.5% winter loss. Totally acceptable losses when considering the number of colonies I winter.

Now, I can see the bees might consume less stores in an insulated hive, but here I manage the hives so the bees will store needed winter feed in the broodnest, and in most cases they do.

I think the most important thing in wintering honey bees is what's inside the hive...not what's on the outside.

but you use top entrances in winter Then insulation is going to drive dessication by increasing airflow and not much to keep the bees at a higher temperature.

When you have a sealed top then its colony weight x hive thermal resistance

and if you insulate not only do they consume less stores they produce less water vapour.
 
Last edited:
Colony entrances consisted of a small upper entrance and a colony-width lower entrance, because small lower hive entrances are detrimental to the thermoregulation of overwintered colonies (Allen, 1964: Szabo, 1985).

Mass Storage of Honeybee Queens during the Winter (M.Sc. Thesis), Wyborn, M.H., 1977, pp. 21-22

The reference to Allen, 1964, has been omitted in the bibliography.

Szabo, T.I., 1985. The thermology of wintering honeybee colonies in 4-colony packs as affected by various hive entrances. Journal of Apicultural Research 24(1): 27-37.

Even I find this difficult to accept, so thought I'd chuck it in the pot for discussion (or bunfight).

If anyone has access to JAR articles, it would be interesting to read Szabo's '85 paper.

LJ
 
Having extensive cold surfaces at the same height of the bees will continually remove water vapour and water from the bees, thus creating a need for water.
A cold hive might have damp wet walls but it is actually dessicating the bees.


Cannot see how this holds water scientifically. Does the interior of a houses with damp walls experience dessication? No they are well sort of damp.
Is there data to support this?
 
Even I find this difficult to accept, so thought I'd chuck it in the pot for discussion (or bunfight).

If anyone has access to JAR articles, it would be interesting to read Szabo's '85 paper.

LJ
Journal of Apicultural Research 24(1) : 27-37 (1985)
THE THERMOLOGY OF WINTERING HONEYBEE COLONIES IN
4-COLONY PACKS AS AFFECTED BY VARIOUS HIVE ENTRANCES
TIBOR I. SZABO
No statisical analysis and small sample size - its inconclusive. bI doubt it would be accepted now.
 
On this forum there is a small cohort of individuals who believe that you cannot have too much insulation.

I think you might find a cohort of one, who runs around two thousand colonies, that has changed to better insulated hives and, if not already, would only run with the better insulated hive type.

I would never ever say one cannot have too much insulation. Within reason, insulation is good and costs very little. Replacing one dead queen in spring (assuming no bees were required to be bought in at the same time) could pay for all the insulation needed above the crownboards for ten hives, maybe more. Payback is likely less than two years, even if no losses were incurred (ie - less winter stores consumed). ..........................

Firstly let me state I am a physicist by education.
Secondly I am not obsessed by anything - but see the lengthy addendum to my name at the end of this post.
Thirdly I have just removed the bottom boards from three Langs : the cappings on the Poly Lang are much smaller (50%?) than the two wooden ones despite more bees in the poly one.

So that proves to my mind pretty conclusively that the claimed advantages to good insulation - less stores consumed - is bourne out by practise.( which is the scientific method.)

So more insulation = more honey left for the beekeeper. What is wrong with that? I thought maximising yield without stressing the bees was a good thing?:sunning:


Finally and ignoring Michael 's input from the US,(!!) I note in the UK most of those dismissive of insulation live in the areas of the UK blessed by the Gulf Stream, or being in the mild South or at or near the sea.. all of which lead to less strenuous and severe winters.

I see no need to take any lectures or advice or comments seriously from people living in such mild climates as to the non-advantages of insulation..:nono::judge:

I live 500 feet above sealevel in the edges surrounding the Peak District. winters are wet , windy and cold. Insulation makes wintering easier.

No--- it is not by itself a magic bullet but in a climate where there are lots of varying factors, every advantage you can get for little money or effort makes economic and practical sense.

I say no more.. Either you understand heat loss or not. If you do not, I assume you live in single glazed uninsulated houses with an artificially inflated heating bill. I am not that rich..not worthynot worthynot worthy
 
Last edited:
Phil
You have reported on the past that you have been keeping fairly extensive records of hive temperature and humidity. Several sources suggest that by not insulating, the bees have a source of water in the condensation that forms on the sides and/or top of the hive. How can this argument be countered - is there any evidence, based on actual measurements of temperature and humidity, that bees in insulated hives suffer from thirst/lack of water?

Maybe if the bees are generally warmer in an insulated hive, they can make short flights for taking water without succumbing to the cool temperatures outside. Discuss.

CVB

Sorry CVB ... I somehow missed this post of yours... Yes I keep a daily log of temperature and humidity inside my LDH and a record of max/min air temperatures - albeit the sensors are at the top of the hive above the frames. I seal the crown board to the top of the hive with aluminium tape so there is absolutely no through draught .. although I have a full mesh floor in the hive, this is protected with a loose fitting 'drawer' and there are mesh protected ventilation holes at the very bottom of the hive as a result of my 'theory' (when I built it) that they may be needed - they are probably not. The hive is triple walled with the middle layer being HD polystyrene and the inner and outer wall layers being 25mm and 15mm timber respectively. Top entrance but with a periscope. 100mm Kingspan in the apex roof all the year round.

So ... my LDH is not a good model for measuring anything apart from what is happening in 'my' hive.

What I have noticed, from my recordings, is that the bees appear to maintain a temperature inside the hive that maxes out at about 38 degrees centigrade ... and which roughly follows the external air temperature ... in winter the measured temp inside the hive is usually between 5 and 10 degrees above the colder outside air temperature and in the spring/summer, when it is warmer, there is less differential. The relative humidity inside the hive (and measured at the same point where the temperature sensor is) remains fairly constant at between 70% and 85% winter and summer and does not appear to follow the ambient temperature - I don't measure the air humidity outside the hive at present.

I don't ever see any condensation on the crown board although I suspect that moisture may condense on my stainless steel mesh floor at the bottom of the hive. Because of the insulation on this (and my other Paynes poly hives) the bees never seem to be really clustered - with clear poly carbonate crown boards I have checked occasionally and they are pretty loose across all the frames, most of the time, although when it really gets down to freezing I've noticed that they do shrink down to a more condensed 'ball' which which seems to form randomly at different places in the hive. Perhaps wherever the queen decides she is going to sit for a while is where the cluster (such as it is) decides to concentrate ?

This LDH colony is by far the biggest of the three colonies and is very healthy - virtually no varroa drop throughout the year apart from a blip in the middle of summer - other varroa measurements have indicated a very low level of infestation. This hive (dare I say it) also has a Bee Gym in place and what little varroa drop I see is usually on the inspection board beneath the point on the floor where this is situated.

My bees have been flying regularly - even in the recent cold spell - they have a rain water source about ten foot from the hive which I have seen bees using - in all seasons - but their main source of water is my garden pond which is round a corner and 50 feet or so away. I do suspect that the insulation and nature of my hives could possibly result in less condensation than in a traditional timber hive but this is simply surmisal, as I have no way of measuring anything at the bottom of the hive. (I did have a temp sensor at the bottom above the mesh floor but this sensor packed up and I've not replaced it).

The original reason for installing the sensors was my desire to see what effect the super insulated LDH had on the colony temp and humidity compared to the external weather conditions and have the confidence that the bees were surviving without opening the hive. The sensors were installed originally when I had plywood crown boards and that aspect of their use was negated when I changed all my crown boards to 6mm clear polycarbonate.

My measurements have confirmed that my bees seem able to maintain a fairly warm and humid hive interior - which is clearly what they want. They are very frugal with their stores and I can tell from the weight of the hive that, although it is a large colony, they have been using less than 1.5lbs of stores a month on average since September. This is also borne out by the cappings/debris on my inspection tray.

What does it tell me ? .. Well, not a lot really, beyond that which I already figured out ... good insulation provides an environment that my bees seem to appreciate and are able to maintain in a fashion that suits them. They are still (despite never having been treated) low on varroa and free of visible disease. They are able to overwinter on the store of honey they have created and I will have to remove several (14X12) frames of excess stores from this hive in the spring. They have not been fed. The comb in the hive is all their own making - always been completely foundationless.

Have I found a successful way to keep bees in our present beekeeping 'climate' ? - only time will tell. I'm going in to my third season with this colony in this hive and this style of management, so I'm hopeful that what has worked so far continues to work. There's plenty of people who said my bees would be dead by now and they are far from it ... they are gentle to handle and are not in the least defensive, despite being a huge colony - I have used an electric drill on the hive whilst they were flying and they just got on with what they do best ! Never need to use smoke or water to calm them down.

Does this sound like la la land - well, yes it does ... I've been waiting for the day when my bees decide that I'm no longer their best friend and it hasn't arrived yet .. I've been watching for the signs of DWV or dysentry or lethargy and they haven't arrived yet ... I check for brood disease and I've had none ...

Guess I'm just lucky ?

If you want the science then you need to look to DerekM - I'm just a seat of the pants beekeeper - following my own instincts and the principle of 'if it works, don't fix it'. I'm not an evangelist for 'my way' - I'm much nearer a beekeeping anarchist - you should do what YOU think you should do - after thinking about it ... I follow RAB in that respect but I keep an open mind and never say never.

I'm looking forward to at least five colonies this year if all goes well and perhaps even a honey crop and learning even more about beekeeping ... well, I can live in hope !

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/sets/72157634865981506/
 
Having extensive cold surfaces at the same height of the bees will continually remove water vapour and water from the bees, thus creating a need for water.
A cold hive might have damp wet walls but it is actually dessicating the bees.


Cannot see how this holds water scientifically. Does the interior of a houses with damp walls experience dessication? No they are well sort of damp.
Is there data to support this?

I use the principle of the conservation of mass
The water being on the walls has to come from somewhere. That somewhere is losing water i.e. dessicated. The bees are the water and heat source. The water and heat come from the bees metabolism of sugars.
 
I use the principle of the conservation of mass
The water being on the walls has to come from somewhere. That somewhere is losing water i.e. dessicated. The bees are the water and heat source. The water and heat come from the bees metabolism of sugars.

A number of things worry me here:

The term desiccation is being incorrectly used here. Desiccation involved the extreme drying which will not occur here. The bees will not be dried to a desiccated/dehydrated state

The water involved in a bee cluster will be a gas vapour so not available to any bees to use to drink insulated or not (unless drips of water drop onto cluster from above which I hope all would agree is detrimentral)

Water will evaporate from a wet surface even if cold.

These values must have been measured rather than being summised.
 
I'm going in to my third season with this colony in this hive and this style of management, so I'm hopeful that what has worked so far continues to work. There's plenty of people who said my bees would be dead by now and they are far from it ... they are gentle to handle and are not in the least defensive, despite being a huge colony -

Philip, I remember your first postings about this hive.
Do you have the original queen here or one of her daughters?
 
A number of things worry me here:

The term desiccation is being incorrectly used here. Desiccation involved the extreme drying which will not occur here. The bees will not be dried to a desiccated/dehydrated state

The water involved in a bee cluster will be a gas vapour so not available to any bees to use to drink insulated or not (unless drips of water drop onto cluster from above which I hope all would agree is detrimentral)

Water will evaporate from a wet surface even if cold.

These values must have been measured rather than being summised.

bees can die of dehydration in winter... see thermology of wintering bees ...

The relative humidity of the air surrounding the bees or cluster is directly related to the surface temperature of the inside of the nest.

The rate of evapouration from water is directly related to water temperature and air velocity. i.e. below 10c and almost zero air movement = tiny
 
Last edited:
bees can die of dehydration in winter... see thermology of wintering bees ...

I have never met that idea. But in our climate bees cannot utilize dry sugar during winter. That is why we do not use that feeding method. 20 kg dry sugar above cluster...WHY!!! ... That is why they do not die for dehydration.

Our bees stay inside the hive 4-5 months, and they cannot move there around hive and search water from walls. It is there too cold.

It is fact that bees winter better in dry hive than in moist hive.
I suppose that water vapous goes into opened food and dilutes the food.

If bees have brood in winter, then they have a huge lack of water and they try to come out even in frost weather.




The rate of evapouration from water is directly related to water temperature and air velocity. i.e. below 10c and almost zero air movement = tiny

Actually our loundry dries up in -10C weather outside because air is very dry.
As you know, people have dried up fish and meat in frost weather.



Relative moisture... A good insulation keeps interior temp higher than in out air and that is why relate moisture keeps the hive dry. If the hive is moist, it takes mold and uncapped fooid will expand in cells and dripple on floor.


.
 
Last edited:
.
You guys allways forget that insulated hive gives better spring build up because bees can maintain larger brood ball inside the hive. Your spring in Britain is chilly several months. Remember that.

That is the secret of electrict heating in spring in my hives.

And if the colony is 5 frames after winter, it have a good build up id the room is restricted to 5 frame size compared to the whole box. It is same as you keep a small nuc in the wide box. Heating extra room is as bad as weak insulation.
 
Last edited:
Philip, I remember your first postings about this hive.
Do you have the original queen here or one of her daughters?

She swarmed last May and I lost her so all three of my hives are her daughters ... the queen in my long hive is still the strongest layer and was probably the first one mated but, of the two now in poly hives (which were remaining queen cells), one is really strong but the other is not as prolific. I should really have squished and replaced her but she's a lovely looking queen who always comes up to the top of the frames when I inspect and looks up at me ... didn't have the heart to take her to the fence. Hoping she gets into swing this season. Just a big softie really ....
 
I have never met that idea. But in our climate bees cannot utilize dry sugar during winter. That is why we do not use that feeding method. 20 kg dry sugar above cluster...WHY!!! ... That is why they do not die for dehydration.

Our bees stay inside the hive 4-5 months, and they cannot move there around hive and search water from walls. It is there too cold.

It is fact that bees winter better in dry hive than in moist hive.
I suppose that water vapous goes into opened food and dilutes the food.

If bees have brood in winter, then they have a huge lack of water and they try to come out even in frost weather.






Actually our loundry dries up in -10C weather outside because air is very dry.
As you know, people have dried up fish and meat in frost weather.



Relative moisture... A good insulation keeps interior temp higher than in out air and that is why relate moisture keeps the hive dry. If the hive is moist, it takes mold and uncapped fooid will expand in cells and dripple on floor.


.

The bees died were very very large colonies put in top ventilated hives in winter.

More energy = more convection = more water loss.
 
I have never met that idea. But in our climate bees cannot utilize dry sugar during winter. That is why we do not use that feeding method. 20 kg dry sugar above cluster...WHY!!! ... That is why they do not die for dehydration.

Our bees stay inside the hive 4-5 months, and they cannot move there around hive and search water from walls. It is there too cold.

It is fact that bees winter better in dry hive than in moist hive.
I suppose that water vapous goes into opened food and dilutes the food.
I suppose that some of the water needed for survival (considering that the bees will be relatively inactive) will simply come from the breakdown of stores irrelevant of its source. ie: sugar breaks down into CO2 and H20. Could be enough water from this to sustain the bees for some time as they do not dispose of water from their bodies at the same rate as mammals. ??
 
bees can die of dehydration in winter... see thermology of wintering bees ...

The relative humidity of the air surrounding the bees or cluster is directly related to the surface temperature of the inside of the nest.

The rate of evapouration from water is directly related to water temperature. ie zero
Do not agree that you can say it is zero. In fact it is not zero. Small yes but if the surface area is large then it could be significant. Evidence needed.

Without wanting to get into an argument it seems you pull quite alot of definite conclusions without really being able to back it up with all the nuances.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Back
Top