Insulating national hives??

[Hivemaker.]

Qualitatively, we insulated the roof space of one hive last year, and left the other as normal (both Nationals). I could see no difference whatsoever in the colonies in spring, and it was a pretty hard winter.

Location thing perhaps,i don't top insulate any of my full colonys,may do with a few this winter that i'm leaving in a very exposed spot high up on the moors.
But down in the valley i don't,and believe the bee's are better off without it,keeping them dry but cold slows down there metabolism and i believe helps them to be stronger bee's, and live longer,also using less food, being as they are almost inactive.Too warm and they are burning themselves out before there time,and could be raising brood at a time of year when it would be better of without it. If i lived up in the far north i would most likely top insulate hives to achieve the same results as i do down in the milder sw climate.

 

[oliver90owner]

irremmovably cement it down

Too true, and then they spend next spring chewing it up and spreading it far and wide. Well chewing firstly all the bits that are not cemented down!

Bad news, bees in contact with low density expanded polystyrene. A lot of work for the bees and no benefits other than the extra space 'won' by all the hard work - which would have been better directed towards pollen foraging early in the spring.

Regards, RAB

 

[psafloyd]

Key thing is insulate the crown board- ideally 50mm of celcon or polystyrene, but anything is better than nothing.

Because I didn't have any material (since then I did get some, but there you go) i bought one from Thornes, as it was only a few quid.

It is a pad covered in plastic with foil on one side and matt black on the other for summer/winter changeover, apparently. It is undersize for the crown board and so there is room all the way rond for ventilation, provided it is placed centrally.

Anyone else used these?

 

[psafloyd]

Space Board at B&Q is on offer just noew: £3.48
http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?isSearch=true&fh_search=sapce+baord

At that price...I bought some more...

I've seen this stuff in skips as offcuts from loft jobs. Damn.

 

[Black Comb]

Because I didn't have any material (since then I did get some, but there you go) i bought one from Thornes, as it was only a few quid.

It is a pad covered in plastic with foil on one side and matt black on the other for summer/winter changeover, apparently. It is undersize for the crown board and so there is room all the way rond for ventilation, provided it is placed centrally.

Anyone else used these?

Yes - one of the things I bought when I first started. Used it for a few months in the summer and then common sense said compared to Kingspan it won't be much use as an insulator. I might put it on a hive next spring to see if it makes any difference.

 

[Poly Hive]

FWIW.

When I ran roughly half and half wood to poly there was this highly noticable difference in Spring. I should add the timber boxes were on ventilated floors as were the polys, this pre it being the norm.

The timber boxes brooded up to three weeks before the polys.

Bernard Mobus theorised that the timber boxes were damper and the bees began brooding to use up some of the moisture in brood food.

I can remember thinking good grief half my hives are queenless, but of course they were not just later in coming into lay, and two months later the poly boxes (on average) were stronger and increasingly so over the timber ones.

This was a consistent situation every spring over some 15 years or so and when discussed with my mentor who was running some 400 boxes he agreed that he had the same results.

PH

 

[oliver90owner]

PH,

I believe you. But the normal thinking, or propaganda, is that the polys start brooding earlier. Probably a difference more noticable when comparing both types with solid floors, perhaps when the wood hives warmed more quickly in the Sun's rays. Who knows!

Certainly one reason for the poly to overtake the wood would be real brooding area, if restrained by a Q/E, because ,as you have reported previously, the bees tend to have brood in the outer sides of the outer frames thus increasing the brood considerably over a similarly treated wood-tainer.

So many things to consider, and take into account, without jumping to erroneous conclusions!!

That is one reason I am going to try at least one poly 14 x12 next year. I will get the experience first hand. I will compare my findings - and yes, both types will have mesh floors.

I never want to go back to solid floors on a permanent basis (although they do still have their uses). Even if I get to 50% poly and 50% wood, it may take two or thee seasons - cost and time, etc. But I will try to remember your experience on the topic and not expect any decisively spectacular differences.

Regards, RAB

 

[Rosti]

PH, that observation certainly gets the brain cells going - wrt whether external side insulation on a timber national adds value or not (putting aside the timber / poly debate). Does it (external side insultaion) predominantly retain additional heat and mimick a poly more closely or would it's over-riding effect be to increase moisture levels in the side walls; effectively increasing the chances of your theory of earlier brooding playing out?

 

[Eyeman]

Is it really necessary to insulate a National Hive

Doesn't anyone vary the 'insultation'?
I close the OMF with Apiguard & feeding till end of OCT- the bees are kept warmer so they can cap the stores.
The OMF is then opened with no top insulaiton till end of FEB- the brood rearing falls so does consumption of stores so Oxalic acid works best in new year.
In MAR the OMF is closed to get them started early whilist checking there is sufficient stores.
Alec

 

[Poly Hive]

If I were to "insulate" a National I would put an empty frame feeder on each outer side and some insulation proper on top. That would allow condensation to form on the inner wall but not directly in contact with the cluster.

Rab? I can categorically say I have not heard anyone claim that poly broods earlier than timber, and as said above I certainly did not have that experience in Aberdeenshire/Kincardinshire a tough environment, nor did my mentor in the softer climes of Ross-Shire, softer by virtue of the Guld Stream BTW.

I will stick my neck out here and say if some one IS making that claim, they are showing significant ignorance of poly hives.
PH

 

[rowbow]

Because I didn't have any material (since then I did get some, but there you go) i bought one from Thornes, as it was only a few quid.

It is a pad covered in plastic with foil on one side and matt black on the other for summer/winter changeover, apparently. It is undersized for the crown board and so there is room all the way rond for ventilation, provided it is placed centrally.

Anyone else used these?

I have used them with good affect on top of my glass crown board, I putt a cheap plastic thermometer underneath, when you lift the pad you can see the condensation is only around the out side edge so it must be working.
Regards
John

 

[Rosti]

I put a cheap plastic thermometer underneath,

I am intrigued now John, what did said thermo read? and did it vary? R

 

[rowbow]

In the summer months around 30, at the moment it hovers around 20, I don't like lifting the pad when its realy cold, but I have been toying with the idea of a cheap digi one with a long probe.
John

 

[drstitson]

can't see why the pads won't be effective to a degree - you can get 5mm foil honeycomb sandwich rolls from DIY stores that are meant to be as good as much thicker polystyrene - we stick them inside our bedroom windows for winter to stop heat loss.

my hives will all be having digital temp/humidity probes fitted to crownboards in next week or so.

 

[Rosti]

I'd quite like the idea if I had hives local to the house. I'm not jealous you understand, I can't wait until my new GPS RFID collars arrive so I can fit them to foragers next year.

 

[drstitson]

"I'd quite like the idea if I had hives local to the house."

Must admit having 2 hives 6-8 metres from lounge door does help (and third hive basically on my midweek drive to work). feeders can be topped up very easily.

 

[PeteS]

can't see why the pads won't be effective to a degree - you can get 5mm foil honeycomb sandwich rolls from DIY stores that are meant to be as good as much thicker polystyrene - we stick them inside our bedroom windows for winter to stop heat loss.

my hives will all be having digital temp/humidity probes fitted to crownboards in next week or so.

Hi,

I'm interested in getting one of these digi temp/humitidy probes, just googled and there are loads... Could you provide a link to the one's you're buying?

Thanks
Pete

 

[sleepingbear]

space board sounds sensible to me......however, why bother at all? I've never seen or even heard of bees dying from the cold.....condensation and damp will do it for them though so whatever you do, let's hope it doesn't add to any condensation or damp that may form. Hope they have happy winter!

 

[oliver90owner]

sleepingbear,

Agreed a strong colony will easily regulate the cluster temperature, even in advese conditions - up tp a point. The colony photograped and on one of the sites was out side a window but slightly protected by the bricks and some ivy, to attenuate some of the winds. It survived last winter with no problem (but may have succumbed to wasps this summer).

However what I call a strong colony and what some new beeks think is strong may not, and often will not, be the same. A weaker colony will succumb to cold if they don't have sufficent bees to maintain the outer bees of the cluster above the 'drop off' temperature of about eight degrees, or if there is so much draught as to chill the cluster continually and unecessarily.

Taking precautions to retain thermal energy, just as one does with one's home, is the better way to get the colony through to spring with enough bees to cover a decent amount of brood when the bees would be feeding the queen strongly to increase her lay rate. The shortage of bees can easily cost a brood cycle, or more, in spring until the first small batch of brood emerges and allows more brood to be serviced by the nurse bees Not good news if they miss the early nectar flows. BTDT.

RAB

Regards, RAB

 

[sleepingbear]

interesting point about weak colonies maybe not surviving due to low numbers. I suppose that's where we should be 'earning our crust' as beekeepers.....identifying weak colonies as we see them (and importantly, identifying why they are weak) and uniting (or dare I say it, allow them to die off if we consider their 'weakness' to be inherent in some way) rather than trying to salvage a strain that through nature's selection has been chosen not to survive - perhaps a little harsh or controversial especially if you feel you can't afford to lose a colony. Just thinking out loud really!! but worth bearing in mind now that it would seem that they's definitely more 'chatter' about varroa resitant bees this year........