Import of NZ bees into UK

[Crg]

Folks - can we please move on from this "300 colonies at Down Ampney" comment because it appears to be wrong. Several times ITLD has stated that the 300 colonies will be split across multiple Coop farms.

Hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

 

[dilys]

However, it is ALSO the case that these new bees will be away mid summer, off at the start of July to the heather at a location yet to be decided and will not return till late September or even October.

Everyone with decent local bees who lives within 10 miles of a heather moor will now be wondering if their moor will be capable of supporting honeybees in July. If so that could be where they are headed.

Each bit of information, dribbling out like Chinese water torture, is making things look worse.

 

[Scutellator]

My problem with the NZ Carniolan bees being dumped in my vicinity is the fear that their 300 colonies are going to produce a lot more drones than my 3 drone producers.

Only 3 colonies producing target drones????? They should be at least a dosen, not only because of the quantity.

 

[Poly Hive]

A good moor can cope with pretty much any amount of hives.

Further if the thread is read there is no decision to put 300 colonies anywhere in a lump, they are to be spread out in groups of 24 if I remember rightly.

The most I have had on a single heather site was 40 and they had hives in some numbers around them belonging to other semi commercial people and none of us could see any fall off in yield.

I would have thought that this news was rather good for the bee breeding project as just as matings should be happening the unwanted bees are moved out. Happy days!

PH

 

[dilys]

The most I have had on a single heather site was 40 and they had hives in some numbers around them belonging to other semi commercial people and none of us could see any fall off in yield.

In July?

 

[BKF Admin]

In my opinion It has always seemed like Amateur Beekeepers think of Bee farmers as money grabbing, while commercial setups always think of Amateur’s as incompetent idiots that get in the way of business.


I am not saying that is the way this thread reads,It is just a general observation.



How far is that from the truth ?

 

[Poly Hive]

Yes in July. I have taken some three supers per hive in JULY of beautiful "Honey from the Heather Moor". And then caught the ling, and listened to the old timers moan about no heather this year... cos they moved on the 12th of August and the flow was well over by the 10th....

I learned the little I know from the pros Admin, and there are some good hints on this thread from an expert. Some may howl but there are experts and experts. Some know the theory inside out but never get honey and some are expert at getting honey. Who stands where in each camp is for the individual to decide.



PH

 

[Into the lions den]

In July?

Bell Heather.........starts around 7th July in many suitable locations. Some sheltered eastern spots even earlier, have seen some habitual early moor goers getting full supers at the very end of June. Normal **** weeks for bell are 3rd and 4th weeks of July.

Had to resubmit............censoring the word that goes after 'mountain' or before 'district'...also means apex.

 

[Crg]

In my opinion It has always seemed like Amateur Beekeepers think of Bee farmers as money grabbing, while commercial setups always think of Amateur’s as incompetent idiots that get in the way of business.


I am not saying that is the way this thread reads,It is just a general observation.



How far is that from the truth ?

and Amateur Beekeepers also think of other Amateur Beekeepers as incompetent idiots?

 

[Poly Hive]

Not just Bell, there are myriad little flowers in amongst the Ling that produce very nicely.

PH

 

[Into the lions den]

In my opinion It has always seemed like Amateur Beekeepers think of Bee farmers as money grabbing, while commercial setups always think of Amateur’s as incompetent idiots that get in the way of business.
I am not saying that is the way this thread reads,It is just a general observation.
How far is that from the truth ?

Quite so, often the attitude encountered on both sides. However neither is actually true.

A professional beekeeper who does not look after his bees properly either perpetually struggles or is not a professional for long. Most of us live for the bees, rather than the other way round, and have had the privelege and opportunity to try to make a living doing what we love. If it was just economics, frankly most would be better off getting another job, but quality of life kicks in and we keep doing the bees. I have a great life that I absolutely revel in.

However, the very highest standard beekeepers are usually very experienced amateurs with the time and meticulous (uneconomically meticulous but superb nonetheless) attention to detail. The amateur ranks also contain the very worst, who can stay that way for years and years as there is no economic necessity to do it any better.

Beekeping is a broad church, with wide ranges of motivations, skill levels, experience and scale. All have a place.

 

[DanBee]

DanBee,

You are obviously missing the thrust of the posting, OR are trying to deflect serious comment. I can see you would like the topic moved far away.

...

600(?) colonies to do the job that 80 did? (maybe the 80 struggled a bit).

Not at all. What I've asked for all along is facts. The figure of 300 colonies, or even the 600 that you are now suggesting, isn't what ITLD has told us will be there. Now I see he has confirmed 40 on the site in question, replacing 70 semi-permanent hives seen there this weekend.

I see that there ae a number against the idea, but there are also a number in favour of it. Those against are against in principle, and will not be swayed, and some even see it as a fight of good against evil. We've seen how willing some are to throw rumour and accusations into the mix in an attempt to support their views, without any basis in fact.

I like your wording to move on - 'appears to be' is the phrase you used. You could well be right and it 'only appears to be', therefore needing far more scrutiny.

...which is why I phrased it as a question, since I do not know. Too much rumour posted as fact here already, so I'm careful to flag up uncertainties.

The issue is that of importing so many packages, as I see it. Bio-security at it's worst.

We have discussed the biosecurity issues at length. I share the concerns with you. Where is the practical alternative? This project is being done above board and in the open, from all that I've heard of it here and elsewhere.

The other issues (genetics, and ignorance of other initiatives (varroa tolerant bees project)) surrounding the project simply exacerbate the situation.

I can't imagine that Swindon is devoid of other beekeepers, nor that they all agree on what stock and genes to keep. There is therefore a long-established pool of background genetics that Ron has been having to work against throughout his project.

If as ITLD says 70 semi-permanent stocks are being replaced by 40 semi-permanent stocks then unless these former stocks were all headed by Ron's queens, they too provided "unmanaged genetic material" which would have skeewed or worked against Ron's efforts for all the years that they have been there.

 

[Into the lions den]

Not just Bell, there are myriad little flowers in amongst the Ling that produce very nicely.

PH

Apart from Tormentil, which they never leave even in **** heather flow, and to some extent the trifoliums, none appear significant in my normal range. Have heard of flows from the berry plants in particular, but think I do not see them as the carrying capacity of such things will be low, and in any case it all vanishes into the heather honey. thinking Cowberry, Cloudberry, Bear berry, Whortleberry, Blaeberry..There are more I cannot think of right now.


dang.......it just dont like that word.........

 

[DanBee]

Everyone with decent local bees who lives within 10 miles of a heather moor will now be wondering if their moor will be capable of supporting honeybees in July. If so that could be where they are headed.

Unless you own the moor, surely you don't have the right to say who or who else doesn't keep bees there...?

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

The statistically fixated may be interested to know this and "What Did you do in the Apiary" are miles ahead in terms of replies and views of the rest of the threads

 

[Into the lions den]

Queens.

Please. Those of you who have been messaging me off list and on e-mail with request for supply.

The queens from this unit are NOT for sale. Neither will there be nucleii available from the unit this year or any other year. I DID actually state this earlier in the thread.

 

[dilys]

Most people wait until the ling heather is close to flowering in large numbers so that the other specious do not contaminate their heather honey.

The point I was making though was that not all moors will have much bell or "myriads of little flowers" and the location of such moors could provide a clue as to where the bees will end up. I don't believe this "myriad of little flowers" stuff in any case, bees taken to moors with poor heather or too early usually try to survive on willow herb in distant valleys. If the wrong moor is chosen for an early start the bees will simply starve to death.

The other point, that moving the hives will be good news for Ron, is a bit hollow as all the neighbouring hives in his district will continue to harbour these exotic drones to enable them to carry on having their influence on his breeding programme. The drones that move with the colonies to these early moors will also do their bit in the new district - thus exacerbating the problem.

It's only good news to people who wish to keep German swarmiolans.

 

[dilys]

Unless you own the moor, surely you don't have the right to say who or who else doesn't keep bees there...?

Agreed. What point are you making?

 

[DanBee]

In my opinion It has always seemed like Amateur Beekeepers think of Bee farmers as money grabbing, while commercial setups always think of Amateur’s as incompetent idiots that get in the way of business.

I am not saying that is the way this thread reads,It is just a general observation.

How far is that from the truth ?

It's a good point, because the stereotype does exist on both sides of the divide. I believe it stems from the age-old beekeeper's view that any problems were caused by their neighbours, not themselves, so they were never to blame.

From the commercial beekeepers perspective, the rise of "let alone beekeeping" raises a lot of concerns, particularly in areas with frequent EFB recurrence. Often there is a perception that the decision on management style is made based upon personal principles rather than understanding of bees, in the way that some pet owners try to keep vegetarian dogs and cats.

From the amateur perspective, the worry is primarily of overstocking, often based on a low expectation of what crops can support, or a concern that "their patch" is being intruded upon. The feeling that commercial beekeepers are "money grabbing" is unfair; yes they watch costs and take opportunities, but very few make their fortunes from beekeeping directly - for most it is a labour of love (for the bees!) that manages to cover the bills and not too much more.

Such a "them and us" mentality is unproductive and unrealistic. I attempt to break this down locally by participating in the local amateur branches and activities and opening up our premises and apiaries to those who are interested in seeing how a commercial outfit runs. I'm not the only one - locally we have a number of well known commercial beekeepers involved with the amateur activities, and many of our local SBI's are semi-commercial, so there's not much basis for "them and us" nonsense.

 

[DanBee]

Agreed. What point are you making?

That you were coming across as territorial, unless I misread you posts.