Import of NZ bees into UK

[DanBee]

Ron was once an Amm man, so it wouldn't surprise me if his stocks lean to Amm still.

If damage to varroa is his primary selection criteria, as his published material suggests, then conservation of any Amm heritage will be passive. I agree that they will still "lean to Amm" if that was the starting position but it would be interesting to consider that the tolerance genes he's looking for might come from outside of the Amm line. That would present an interesting dilemma: the resistant mongrels or the susceptible "locals"... which is the responsible choice?

I'm speculating because I seem to have an annoying habit of being double-booked when Ron is speaking locally, so haven't heard it first hand.

Hence also my question as to whether he was using AI - I too had picked up on him using it at some stage for selection in the past, but both his literature and the comments here are not definitive as to whether it is still used for refining the breeding stock.

I see Ron is speaking at Stoneleigh this year, on both Friday and Saturday, so I will make sure I get to hear him.

 

[Scutellator]

.
Our researcher visited just in Bulgaria and told that only one race is allowed in Bulgaria. It is Macedonian.
State keeps beekeeping development in strict hands. He told too that Bungaria has not mite tolerant bee strains.

Yes. Only one race is allowed. Only one bee breeding organisation. And that is the problem. The monopoly is not a good thing. No importations allowed. What is the benefit from all of this? What kind of disease you have that we don't? Recently, many beekeepers from all the country are reporting huge winter losses from bees absconding the hives.

About the race of bees - well, firstly they decided to call it Rhodopica (the name comes from Rhodope mauntains), later they figured it out, they could not use that name so the name Rhodopica became Macedonica. But few years now they suddenly stopped to use that name as well (curiously WHY. but that is another story), and at present they call them just LOCAL bees.

State keeps beekeeping development in strict hands.

I would rather say the only thing keeped in strict hands is the subsidies by the breeding organisation. Finman, the bees in their preserved apiaries probably eat more goverment money per hive for sugar feeding than you have ever harvested in the best of your seasons. Situated in the bare rocks the bees gather nothing but sugar syrup.

He told too that Bungaria has not mite tolerant bee strains.

There are such resistant (not tolerant) bees, but they do not fit to the racial appurtenance and purity standards of the breeding organisation. They are found within the large depopulated areas we have. I live very near to one of them. The bees live for years without medical treatments and no occurrence of mites. I have few of those myself. One of my neighbours also have such bees, he haven't been using treatments for years, at least he told me so.


Finman, i can show you pictures of bees , if you want, to see how the local bees looked 10 years ago and now. Today the commercialy propagated bees are much more lighter in colour.

 

[DanBee]

Unless of course you do some lateral thinking: That the drones of selected imported queens AND the drones of the daughters of these imports may actually IMPROVE the overall gene frequency of desirable characters in local populations. It could be said that the drones of local UNSELECTED stocks are damaging the desirable genetic material that is imported in free matings in subsequent generations.

I think you've just earned a long stay in Heretic's Corner This is the question that dare not be asked: could a bit of diversity actually improve what we have already?

 

[Chris B]

Just out of hospital after an op. (ruptured appendix) and recouperating. This thread has grown! Too much to read it all really so I've just skimmed.
I was hoping to go to Murrays talk today but not fit enough so I'll have to ask my questions here if you wouldn't mind answering them Murray. (Sorry if you have already and I've missed it):

Q: given your extensive contacts and expertise, why didn't you source the bees for these packages from the regions bee farmers? (I'm not talking about the queens here). Harvesting a super of bees for springtime cash is at least as attractive as honey production. I could have done at least 100 myself and I can't believe I'm unique.

Q: Have you had any AFB show itself in the NZ packages you and others had last year?

All the best
Chris

 

[oliver90owner]

Chris B,

Hope you are recovering well. Need to, because those bees will soon need a lot of attention!

I think the packages issue was side-stepped much earlier. I am still not totally sure as to whether these are simply imported queens as den(rosa) would like a lot to think or more than ten million bees. The latter is only obvious from his comments about health.

The likelihood of a problem occurring is 20,000 times more likely than introducing just the queen.

Still not pro foreign importation of queens and particularly not on this scale. I agree with you that the bees could easily have been sourced locally. These importations will all have the local diseases in a short time anyway. It is only the extras ones which we don't want.

If they are like the Australian imports to the USA, they won't last long anyway (if the colony losses from some of those bees were to be believed).

Regards, RAB

 

[Chris B]

Chris B,

Hope you are recovering well. Need to, because those bees will soon need a lot of attention!

Thanks RAB. I'm on my feet but that's about it. Slow but steady progress and I'll be fine in a fortnight I'm sure. I'm just grateful it happened now and not a month later.

 

[OXFORDBEE]

Chris,

Just like to second RAB, It's not nice having lots of hives to manage and being unwell..

Get well, but try to take it easy for a while if you can!!

 

[chycarne]

Chris B, get well soon I had mine taken out just before that happened so I know how you feel!! good luck and get well soon! took me 6 weeks but...

 

[BKF Admin]

Hi Chris B,welcome back to the forum.
I did get a pm from a member telling me what had happened to you and have been awaiting your return.

I hope your recovery is going well.

Mark.

 

[Swinbee]

Is the Co-op bee-ing misled or just don't care?

I too have not had the time to read all the stuff on the forum, but what arrogant tosh is concealed in the (BEE FARMER INVOLVED (BFI)) reply to criticism of his and the Co-op’s plans to put 300 hives on two southern locations. I feel he even believes what he writes.

Being “a dark strain of Northern European origin” really doesn’t say much at all. Dark they may be but what would a morphometric check determine? Quite a way off being European any more I suspect. I must confess however, I had no knowledge of NZ having two types of bee but would think they are no longer pedigree European, just look dark.



However, there is no doubt at all in my mind, and it is well documented, that NZ bees are very mild and can be stroked by kids (if you wish to subject them to it, the kids I mean) to prove it. But it is also well known, certainly in England, that when they cross with local bees the result can be disastrous, aggressive and followers are mostly the result.



It is also a well known fact that colonies headed by young queens are not prone to swarming. It is in their second and third season that this becomes inevitable (does he intend re-queening each spring?) BUT, nature will out; even in the first season … when conditions are right, perhaps in a strong flow nature takes over and deems it to be a good time to multiply (swarm). 300 colonies to inspect will surely mean some queen cells will be missed, even by the best “residential beekeeper on a strict 10 day inspection routine“. Once a cell is capped the bees are ready to swarm. If the weather is suitable that could be only 7 or 8 days after the cell was actually started making a 10 routine a bit suspect. The “only 2 out of 200 threw castes” is possibly indicative that the main swarm had already escaped and the caste was a secondary swarm headed by a virgin?



Then of course there is swarming for survival. Around Down Ampney in Gloucestershire, there will not be much flora once they have pollinated the Co-op’s crops in the spring. 300 strong colonies of NZ bees, known to be prolific and needing lots of stores will no doubt struggle. Perhaps he intends taking them all back to Scotland to the heather, or supplementary feeding, especially in the June gap we have round here, more than 3 weeks some years when such strong colonies will reduce their stores to zero and starve? Or does the Co-op have plans to grow bulk bee friendly crops for the annual benefit of 300 hives, the pollination of their main crop could then suffer if the bees have a wider selection.



Local beekeepers will be having trouble getting a honey crop with 300 hives moving into their normal foraging areas. Then there is the local knowledge that the bee farmer who had just 80 hives in the Down Ampney sites was never blessed with a decent honey crop.



Even if BFI were to stop swarming, (very doubtful), he makes no mention of the masses of drones his 600 colonies will be producing, (not needed by his non-swarming, non-queen producing colonies) therefore most of which will make there services available to the virgin queens being produced by local beekeepers possibly making it necessary for them to have to subsequently re-queen with purchased British queens should their bees become unworkable.



I have nearly 68 years of beekeeping experience behind me and have experienced the results of hybridization with NZ bees, however, I was never aware that NZ had managed to keep two separate strains apart. So on the point of the crosses becoming aggressive I must remain pensive.



My major concern in having these 300 colonies within eight miles of my apiary is the fear that this will be a substantial risk, even the end to all the work I have been doing for nearly two decades.

I have bred bees that are hygienic. This is well documented and has been “Tagged” by the media as “The Swindon Bee”. (If you are unaware of it simply Google ‘Swindon Bee’ and all will be revealed).

My plans this season was to involve local beekeepers in breeding and spreading the genes of this hygienic strain of bees but with 300 NZ colonies down the road I don’t stand much of a chance.



I now ask the Co-op to reconsider their plans and use only bees from local sources. 'BFI' is in it for the money only. If you are really serious about your Plan B then you will not wish to thrust 600 colonies of foreign bees upon local beekeepers. This may well cause many, especially in my case, to give up beekeeping altogether. With all my work gone there will be no incentive to keep going. I did not think it was your intent to cause damage to local beekeeping.
There is also the effect on other insects that are pollinators, like the Bumble Bees, Butterflies,Moths etc., who will sadly lose too much of their natural forage.
300 colonies dumped into one area is overkill. Using local bees from a local bee farmer is simply temporary relocation of the areas existing bee stocks.
Please re-think?

 

[Chris B]

Swinbee I presume you must be Ron?

It seems to me there's scope for a win-win here if you open up a dialogue asap. Co-ops new colonies won't have mature drones until late this season. Time to rear and mate plenty of new queens from your line. Would the Co-op/Murray consider requeening from your stock towards the end of the season? It would accelerate your project. How could either party refuse?

 

[oliver90owner]

Hi Ron,

The more I learn of this venture the more I feel it is driven by a foreigner in our midst (Den). Someone who is cash-driven and will not particularly care about the locals.

I unfortunately think it is fait a complis.

I certainly would not be a happy bunny with that lot on my doorstep.

Den has glossed over as many issues as he can, I believe. Quoting facts and figures which cannot be argued against - because we just don't know.

He is now dosing the same medicine south of the border as he did north last year. I don't think he will come out of this with any great liking from the locals - and it could end as a huge disaster for English apiculture, inflicted by an outsider.

Regards, RAB

 

[gavin]

I'd suggest Chris B's approach rather than taking RAB's line. Murray will listen if you open up dialogue - I can't say whether or not you will get what you want, but he will listen.

 

[Into the lions den]

Back from the south.

Came back in the night from my fact finding mission in the areas in question, and the talk at Symonds Yat, and see that a lot of the same misinformation has resurfaced.

I am well aware that there are many who plainly do not believe a word I say, and know better than I do myself about my ability and my motives. The rumours are plainly true and what I have to tell is not. So be it. I cannot get rouind that. I have been open about the project, answered charges well wide of the mark, dealt with stuff that was totally fictitious, and understand very well that some opposition is inevitable.

However, whilst down there I DID look at some of these local bees that apparently I am going to destroy..............and what I saw was bees that are more exotic looking than anything I propose. They were a real mixed bag, with more yellow phase workers out pollen gathering than there were dark ones. The dark ones were grey striped as well, and I mean really grey striped (as in carnica or caucasica striped). To my mind the colonies were good and of nice strength, but A.m.m. of any degree of purity they plainly are not. I am not denigrating the bees, or their keepers, and would not have been unhappy if they belonged to me, but any idea that I am going to bring disaster to the area, when the local drone pool must be full of these hybridised bees already is untrue. If these existing bees are not a threat then neither are mines. I do appreciate that those thinking ALL the bees in the local gene pool are locally adapted stock may well be sincere and not have seen the rather yellow crosses I saw.

The theme of aggression is being raised again and again, with repect to the crosses. I can only repeat yet again that in our outfit, and our mainstream bees and hybrids are a lot closer to real blacks (a yellow stripe colony is very rare) than those I saw on Friday, the crosses with these bees, and we have had many many thousands, are not aggressive.

Off forum, in private messages, and especially meeting people face to face yesterday, the reception is not by any means universally negative, and people who apparently had a lot to lose were welcoming and open. That is not to say there were no concerned voices, because there were a few, but the majority were open and helpful.

With respect to Chris B's suggestion? I would agree to doing a trial group, a single isolated set. However, all my earlier misgivings about UK origin stock remain. Not about the stock per se, but the availability of health certification.

Finally...........as Dan was before me, I am frustrated by people who do not know me indicating, with incredible levels of certainty, that I am motivated only by cash. Just not true, not even slightly true. I am one of the least materialistic people you will come across and what motivates me most in life is bees. I know what my own ethics are and what makes me tick.

Off travelling again today, got bee sites to sort out in Aberdeenshire, weather permitting, so may not be able to respond promptly to matters arising.

 

[Crg]

Being “a dark strain of Northern European origin” really doesn’t say much at all. Dark they may be but what would a morphometric check determine?

Why would we care? Surely you meant "What would a DNA check determine?"

Quite a way off being European any more I suspect. I must confess however, I had no knowledge of NZ having two types of bee but would think they are no longer pedigree European, just look dark.

Non Italian bees were originally imported in to NZ, it's just that they are known for their Italian bees. Also more recently Carnica has been brought in.

 

[Tom Bick]

Hi Ron and welcome to the forum it is good to hear this debate from your situation.

I do hope that you have contacted the coop over this situation and also if others on the forum contact the coop with balanced well pointed reasons (please no rants) for them to look again even at this late stage I think they may listen.

The coop will have invested loads of money into this project and it will hurt them to spend more but if they make the right decision now the good publicity they can receive will be worth more perhaps than I bet their yearly advertising budget.

You never know folks as I posted in post 443 “in an ideal world” this can still happen and Ron’s work is very important and has to be helped and protected if possible.

Good look Ron

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm not experienced or well enough read to comment really but this thread has filled me with despair. Apart from anything else I would hate that number of hives anywhere near me. My neighbouring parish woodland has just installed four hives from a not so near BKA and I got grumpy enough about that.

 

[mbc]

This sort of thing is probably happening to a greater or lesser extent to all of us with a commercial beekeeper operating in our areas. Not all, but certainly the majority of commercial beekeepers will requeen and head splits with imported queens. The only novel aspect of this project is the apparent hypocrisy of the co op who would like their cake and eat it ( strange English expression, but I think it fits in this case !)with regard to ostensibly supporting native bees through their plan bee while shipping in foreigners to try to stock their shelves with a farm assured honey.
I totally respect ITLD or BFI or Den or Murray, coming on the forum and answering many of the criticisms levelled at the project, and I'm convinced by his statements that he, and the co op have gone about it entirely responsibly within the framework of the present rules regarding bee imports into the UK.
I dont think Murray or the co op are to blame for the majority of imports into the country rather its the rules themselves, so possibly our energies as objectors would be better spent trying to change these.
As to the bees themselves, I think its clear from previous posts that these originate from German stock imported by the kiwi's for a breeding programme then exported back to us. If this is true, then I bet Murray cant wait to for some of the local drones to get stuck into his virgins as the gene pool of breeders imported by the kiwi's cant have been large and he'll want to avoid inbreeding depression.

 

[dilys]

If this is true, then I bet Murray cant wait to for some of the local drones to get stuck into his virgins as the gene pool of breeders imported by the kiwi's cant have been large and he'll want to avoid inbreeding depression.

If Murray really knows as much about bees as he thinks he does he will be hoping that his drones will overwhelm the local drone population and his bees remain largely as originally supplied by the Germans. If not, any mixing of blood will almost certainly lead to bees that are too aggressive be managed properly.

Local beekeepers, of course, will be hoping that their drones will be more plentiful than Murray's. To think this argument is about the relative merits of AMM against German Carnicas amounts to a gross oversimplification. It's about the choice between (a) continually stirring up of the gene pool and (b) breeding from the best locally until the gene pool is stable, good and reliable. People on opposite sides of that fence will never agree and the Coop seems to have been misled into thinking that they can be on both sides simultaneously. I fear they might live to regret their naivety.

Whatever your view is of the local gene pool, it seems hardly right that a single outsider can be allowed to impose his philosophy onto all the local beekeepers. Unfortunately the law is such that Marray's actions are perfectly legal. It's also perfectly legal for the locals to voice their objections and to try to apply pressure on the Coop.

The other consideration - the dangers of importing disease also misses the point. I am sure the Kiwi's would be unlikely to permit diseased stock out and that Fera will be reasonably careful to watch what comes in but it would be conceited in the extreme to believe we know enough about diseases to be confident that importation is necessarily safe. In the last few years at least 2 and possibly 3 new pathogens have been discovered so how many more are out there that we don't yet know about and how many are there in NZ that are not here already? Anyone who thinks he knows the answers to those questions is deluding himself.

Every beekeeping association in the British isles is against imports but the Coop are riding roughshod over them all.

Dil

 

[Somerford]

Dilys

I think your summary is excellent - I couldn't agree more !

If you are a member of your local association then I presume you will raise this issue at the next meeting - indeed anyone who is a member of their local association could do worse than to raise it as an urgent point.

regards

S