ideas on converting national frames to fit into a layens horizontal hive

[Alan B]

Greetings ,

I have two hives one poly and one wooden , and hope to build two horizontal hives to switch over to next year.

primarily because of bad back ,they also seem bee friendly as well.

although im building from scratch ,im thinking it makes sense to be able to swap frames straight over ,perhaps removing the

bottom bar or just adding some foundation to encourage bees to build deeper .

this would mean that the hive would probably be straight sided and not sloping as many long boxs seem to be.

has anyone done something similar ? all ideas would be welcome . Alan

 

[Ian123]

Add in the frames the bees will extend, if you can add some between layens frames they will act as a guide.
The layens hive is no more bee friendly than any other box!…….it’s just simply sales BS

 

[Sutty]

Could you just create a long hive that took national deep frames? Essentially the same width as a national brood box but maybe 4-5x the length?

 

[drex]

Exactly what I did, when, after many years, I had had my fun with a KTBH. I converted it to a long horizontal National box, since my main hives are National. The bees thrived

 

[Buzby]

Could you just create a long hive that took national deep frames? Essentially the same width as a national brood box but maybe 4-5x the length?

Ahh, That would be a Dartington.

 

[Murox]

Greetings ,

I have two hives one poly and one wooden , and hope to build two horizontal hives to switch over to next year.

primarily because of bad back ,they also seem bee friendly as well.

although im building from scratch ,im thinking it makes sense to be able to swap frames straight over ,perhaps removing the

bottom bar or just adding some foundation to encourage bees to build deeper .

this would mean that the hive would probably be straight sided and not sloping as many long boxs seem to be.

has anyone done something similar ? all ideas would be welcome . Alan

As you will realise the Layens hive and system was developed in France in the 19th century by George Layens. I have used both national and layens hives; if I was building a horizontal hive layens style from scratch again now I would almost certainly choose to use standard size 14x12 frames (a Layens top bar is around 363.53mm long (circa14½ inches) by ± 410mm deep) but using Layens system of hive management. The frames are deeper so that the bee cluster can stay in contact with their honey stores all winter and move upward more easily, rather then needing to cross onto new frames as in brood and a half or double brood. (7 Layens frames is around 40 litres in volume and a frame full with honey weighs about 4.5kg)

 

[Ian123]

using Layens system of hive management. The frames are deeper so that the bee cluster can stay in contact with their honey stores all winter and move upward more easily, rather then needing to cross onto new frames as in brood and a half or double brood. (7 Layens frames is around 40 litres in volume and a frame full with honey weighs about 4.5kg)

That’s a theory!!!!!…. And I’ve never seen anything compelling to suggest otherwise. My double box hives have never had an issue moving into the top box either.
Natural comb/nests is often full of gaps obstructions that bees must cross or pass.
It’s also I’d imagine the whole point of a cluster, it’s in contact with multiple points combs and even frames!
I’m imagining a cluster of bees stopping at the bee space gap (most times often bridged with brace comb anyway)…all waiting for the ladies at the back to pass the ladders up
I’ll start a new theory suggesting multiple boxes and bee space gaps between them allow bees better contact with the cluster allow easy passage in times of contraction/expansion and the passing of food if some parts are not in contact with stores.
I’m off to build a hive that allows this
Should also add whatever box people choose is not an issue and may have many reasons, but let’s not make stuff up

 

[fian]

The layens box is widely used in the Spanish and French Mediterranean. The measurements of the frame do not differ much from a deep 12*14" bs. Layens established his hive with 20 frames, although the most used were 16. Now, due to the proliferation of the langstroth/dadant frame, its length has been reduced to a hybrid of 12/13 frames for the breeding chamber and supers with 9 dadant frames for harvest.
The location of the entrance is on the long side, perpendicular to the layout of the boxes.

 

[Murox]

That’s a theory!!!!!…. And I’ve never seen anything compelling to suggest otherwise. My double box hives have never had an issue moving into the top box either.
Natural comb/nests is often full of gaps obstructions that bees must cross or pass.

Yes, it is.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Ahh, That would be a Dartington.

No
a Dartington uses 14x12 frames

 

[Alan B]

Add in the frames the bees will extend, if you can add some between layens frames they will act as a guide.
The layens hive is no more bee friendly than any other box!…….it’s just simply sales BS

I see ,so no need to remove the bottom wooden bars .Bees will just add to them .thus i can gradually swap to deeper frames or just topbars .
as time goes on. forgot to mention both my current hives are using national SN1 . thankyou for your reply.

 

[Alan B]

As you will realise the Layens hive and system was developed in France in the 19th century by George Layens. I have used both national and layens hives; if I was building a horizontal hive layens style from scratch again now I would almost certainly choose to use standard size 14x12 frames (a Layens top bar is around 363.53mm long (circa14½ inches) by ± 410mm deep) but using Layens system of hive management. The frames are deeper so that the bee cluster can stay in contact with their honey stores all winter and move upward more easily, rather then needing to cross onto new frames as in brood and a half or double brood. (7 Layens frames is around 40 litres in volume and a frame full with honey weighs about 4.5kg)

14 x 12 sounds about right ,I recon a gradual swap over as frames need replacing .but initially my national frames straight in. thankyou for help

 

[Alan B]

Exactly what I did, when, after many years, I had had my fun with a KTBH. I converted it to a long horizontal National box, since my main hives are National. The bees thrived

Is your horizontal hive straight [square sided ] or tapered? I use SN1 frames at present. Any things you wished you new ,before the swap? Alan :]

 

[Alan B]

Could you just create a long hive that took national deep frames? Essentially the same width as a national brood box but maybe 4-5x the length?

yes i think that will be the plan ,as i use national deep brood frames already . thankyou

 

[Ian123]

I see ,so no need to remove the bottom wooden bars .Bees will just add to them .thus i can gradually swap to deeper frames or just topbars .
as time goes on. forgot to mention both my current hives are using national SN1 . thankyou for your reply.

Lots of people put standard BS deeps into 14x12..It’s what many nucs are supplied on. The bees will draw from the bottom bars it’s common. If as they expand you can mix with the larger frames they will act as a guide and it’ll help the bees to keep any additional comb straight. You may get some cross over comb but you should be able to deal with it…..warning though don’t just flip the frames new comb is delicate.

 

[Alan B]

Lots of people put standard BS deeps into 14x12..It’s what many nucs are supplied on. The bees will draw from the bottom bars it’s common. If as they expand you can mix with the larger frames they will act as a guide and it’ll help the bees to keep any additional comb straight. You may get some cross over comb but you should be able to deal with it…..warning though don’t just flip the frames new comb is delicate.

okay thanks again , will have a look around for some nice wide planking ,but the whole proceedure may take some time before the finished article :]

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I use SN1 frames at present

i use national deep brood frames already

make your mind up - do you use shallows (SN1s) or deeps
At least you don't use national monstrosities (AKA jumbos or 14x12 )

 

[Anduril]

Greetings ,

I have two hives one poly and one wooden , and hope to build two horizontal hives to switch over to next year.

primarily because of bad back ,they also seem bee friendly as well.

although im building from scratch ,im thinking it makes sense to be able to swap frames straight over ,perhaps removing the

bottom bar or just adding some foundation to encourage bees to build deeper .

this would mean that the hive would probably be straight sided and not sloping as many long boxs seem to be.

has anyone done something similar ? all ideas would be welcome . Alan

This is what @BMH did with the frames for his Layens hive. There is also another video.

 

[drex]

Is your horizontal hive straight [square sided ] or tapered? I use SN1 frames at present. Any things you wished you new ,before the swap? Alan :]

It is straight sided, takes DN4 frames, just like my standard hives. Holds about 30 frames. Entrance either end, with division board, so can hold 1 or 2 colonies . I use it mainly as a brood factory. No problems. Just wish I had converted it sooner

 

[Alan B]

make your mind up - do you use shallows (SN1s) or deeps
At least you don't use national monstrosities (AKA jumbos or 14x12 )

sorry for confusion , i thought SN1 was supers and DN1 was brood