Ibuprofen in syrup mix?

[dpearce4]

Sorry JBM but I simply don't agree.

Question for you. How do you know what the quality of cheap black market oxalic acid is? Are you confident that it hasn't been contaminated with other undesirable and toxic compounds?

Try researching falsified medicines. You might find it illuminating if not a bit scary.

I have only ever bought my OA from a reputable guy on a street corner. Just a shame it was cut very heavily with Coke and Speed.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Sorry JBM but I simply don't agree.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on this one - you're leaving your professional opinions on correctly/incorrectly prescribed pharmaceuticals distract you from the much wider picture

How do you know what the quality of cheap black market oxalic acid

What black market?!!! we're not talking pharmaceuticals here - we're talking a readily (and still is) available chemical compound which has a myriad of uses. Noone's meeting a shady looking character in the toilets of some seedy pub to get a quick OA fix.
Do you honestly think that the manufactures of apibioxial go out and purchase 'medical grade Oxalic acid dihydrate'?

Think I'll turn in now - this thread is turning from the bizarre to the ridiculous

 

[Hivemaker.]

What black market?!!!

http://www.bees-online.co.uk/detail.asp?ID=303&name=Oxalic-Acid-Crystals
Some of these bee supply companies are up to it, been at it for over 15 years, selling these harmful black market products, but they only became harmful suddenly overnight a few months ago, strange that.

More black market oxalic here....https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=o...firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&ei=ntwoWPHZEaWK8QeSjryACA

Do you honestly think that the manufactures of apibioxial go out and purchase 'medical grade Oxalic acid dihydrate'?

Wouldn't be much point, they would only contaminate the pure stuff with glucose and anti caking agent.

Think I'll turn in now - this thread is turning from the bizarre to the ridiculous

Bye.....

 

[Karol]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on this one - you're leaving your professional opinions on correctly/incorrectly prescribed pharmaceuticals distract you from the much wider picture

If you say so.

What black market?!!!

By all means JBM - take the pish and laugh.

we're not talking pharmaceuticals here

That's precisely what you're talking about. Put contaminants aside for one minute and consider the simple matter of purity. How would you know if the OA you have has been cut with something cheaper and to what extent? You wouldn't.

So, why worry if it's been cut (or even replaced) with a harmless and innocuous filler?

Well, if it isn't of the correct purity you won't get the drop that you should which will mask the true extent of any varroa problem you may have and put the hive at risk of failure.

Nice one!

- we're talking a readily (and still is) available chemical compound which has a myriad of uses. Noone's meeting a shady looking character in the toilets of some seedy pub to get a quick OA fix.

Are you really taking this to the level of Goodnight Sweetheart???

You have no clue JBM. Black marketeering in APIs and chemicals is run by massive organised crime syndicates. They don't care who gets hurt. The OA market is huge and therefore potentially worth millions to illicit forgers.

Any idea if there's a difference in quality and risk from OA produced via nitric acid oxidation or sodium formate dehydrogenation or dialkyl oxalate hydrolysis or using cyanogen???

I haven't a clue and can't be arsked to find out. The work has already been done for the market authorised product.

Do you honestly think that the manufactures of api-bioxial go out and purchase 'medical grade Oxalic acid dihydrate'?

Absolutely. Not just that but they will have to define and strictly control who manufactures the OA and get that approved by the VMD and they will have to regularly send quality controllers to the plant to inspect manufacture. They will have to prove that the quality of the OA meets the pharmaceutical specification. And the VMD will have complete oversight to verify all of this.

Think I'll turn in now - this thread is turning from the bizarre to the ridiculous

This is interesting:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...data/file/563283/MAVIS_100_-_OCTOBER_2016.pdf

Have a look at the pharmacovigilance quarterly report as well as microbial resistance.

The Summary of Product Characteristics (SPC) for Api-Bioxal can be found here:

https://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/ProductInformationDatabase/Default.aspx

This is actually a bigger issue than most give consideration to, i.e. confidence in the quality of honey produced and credentials in responsible beekeeping.

Perhaps beekeepers should be assessed (voluntarily I might add) with a five star system rating system much like other food purveyors have to.

 

[Webby]

It lost interest in my own thread now. It's gone a bit weird.

 

[Beefriendly]

How would you know if the OA you have has been cut with something cheaper and to what extent? You wouldn't.

Yes you would, it wouldn't sublimate.
Black market OA almost a joke, if there wasn't Apibioxal; doesn't fully sublimate either and more expensive than many designer drugs (so I'm told).

However the pure stuff is cheap as chips already, no point cutting it.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Yes you would, it wouldn't sublimate.
Black market OA almost a joke, if there wasn't Apibioxal; doesn't fully sublimate either and more expensive than many designer drugs (so I'm told).

However the pure stuff is cheap as chips already, no point cutting it.

The stuff I've seen for sale has been packaged in poly buckets with a tear to open lid seal and bore the manufacturers label and artwork. Risk of being cut with third party crap close to zero in my judgement

 

[Karol]

Yes you would, it wouldn't sublimate.
Black market OA almost a joke, if there wasn't Apibioxal; doesn't fully sublimate either and more expensive than many designer drugs (so I'm told).

However the pure stuff is cheap as chips already, no point cutting it.

Okay Beefriendly - let's cut to the corollary as you appear to espouse it:

1. You are vouching for the quality and consistency of every single pot of unlicensed OA on the market.

2. You don't care about dosing so long as you see the OA sublime so overdosing and harming bees isn't a concern.

3. You're quite happy to send out the message that you would prefer to use cheap OA of unsubstantiated quality regardless of risk to your bees instead of using the licensed product which is controlled to minimise harm to bees.

4. You're quite happy to send out the message to the wider world that animals under your care don't deserve the protection that the VMD affords them and to hell with public confidence in bee keepers of a similar persuasion.

Not really an advocate for responsible bee keeping are you?

Just thought you might like to understand the message that is going out to the wider world.

 

[Beefriendly]

Karol that's the biggest load of tosh I've seen written in ages.
May I suggest you grow up and stop childishly abusing peoples posts that don't happen to agree with your precious opinion.
Bees overdosing on OA......whatever will you come up with next!

 

[Karol]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...ggsMAU&usg=AFQjCNEl_PAbLIH8yC-jXaELU_OvtBLQjw

and

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...ggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNG7mzzEeQn9li2GkqbBfTcZ2cXqAQ

Perhaps Beeunfriendly you'll also observe the synergism of sugar in the formulation.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Am I missing something entirely here?
Both those papers are describing tests on topical application of the bees. The first in acetone (what does acetone do to bees anyway and do any beekeepers apply it thus) and the second in a sugar syrup.
As most folk here are likely to be sublimating in future....or one would hope so....what does the presence of sugar have to do with anything. Or are you suggesting the Oxalic sublimate somehow dissolves in any open honey cells and affects the bees that way? Or that rogue oxalic is cut with sugar? .......oh sorry that's Apibioxal
The synergism has long been known which is why if you are dribbling oxalic it is done in a sugar solution.

 

[Karol]

You can expect higher rates of honey bee mortality with sublimation. Synergism reduces the risk of bee mortality because effectively a lower dose achieves the same result. It's all in the SPCs.

As for missing something then the papers were cited in response to Beeunfriendly's derision towards the risk of overdosing.

 

[Hivemaker.]

As most folk here are likely to be sublimating in future....or one would hope so.

Yes, much kinder to the bees, and very difficult to over dose compared to the trickle method, which is quite harmful.

Does vaporization hurt the bees?

Radetzki didn’t note increased bee mortality after winter treatment. Heinz Kaemmerer of Heilyser Technology Ltd. says: “We treated several colonies for 3 months during winter, once a week with the vaporizer and all colonies survived.” “With brood, colonies can be treated with the right amount of OA 3 to 4 times, a week apart; there is no harm to bees, queen or brood.” Medhat Nasr confirms that vaporized oxalic is very gentle to the bees.

Ninety-five apiarists in seven European countries participated, counting a total of 797,744 mites from 1,509 colonies! The efficacy of two amounts of oxalic vapor were compared to Amitraz (Taktic) and Perizin (coumaphos).Radetzki found that mite kill takes place in the first week, and tapers off for the next two weeks. Without brood one vaporizer treatment is more than 95% effective and with a follow up treatment, your bees should be almost mite free.” Some Europeans use it regularly during the summer.

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/files/__www.mellifera.de_engl2.pdf

The colonies that were treated with oxalic acid on average had a lower content of oxalic acid in honey than the non-treated colonies. The vaporisation of oxalic acid,therefore seems to be completely harmless in this respect too.
The content of oxalic acid in the examined honey samples was in each case in the lower area of what is know as natural variation. Franco Mutinelli 3) looked at the natural content of oxalic acid in 32 samples of different Italian honeys. He found a content of 20 to 400 mg oxalic acid per kilogram

 

[Hivemaker.]

You can expect higher rates of honey bee mortality with sublimation.

But one method – sublimation, by which the chemical is vapourised inside the hive using an electrically heated tool – has no negative effect on the bees. In fact, colonies treated in this way had 20% more bees four months later than untreated colonies.

It is also the easiest to use, the deadliest to the mites - killing 97% with one application - and is effective at lower doses than the other methods.

What’s more, it only costs a few pence to treat each hive.

Professor Francis Ratnieks, head of LASI, says that beekeepers should cease using the other two methods ("trickling" and "spraying", in which a solution of oxalic acid is used) as they are harmful to the bees and less effective at killing Varroa.

Professor Ratnieks says: “It is almost too good to be true that sublimation, the best method for killing Varroa with oxalic acid, also has no harmful effects on the bees, and is the quickest to apply.

“Beekeepers should only use the sublimation method. If they apply oxalic acid in this way, they can be confident that it will kill most of the mites and will not harm the bees.”

http://www.sussex.ac.uk/broadcast/read/33537

 

[Finman]

.
Professor Ratnieks seems to have very limited experience about beekeeping.

I wonder has he ever nursed bees.

IT is like prof Derekm's dokmas about insulation

 

[Beefriendly]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...ggsMAU&usg=AFQjCNEl_PAbLIH8yC-jXaELU_OvtBLQjw

and

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...ggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNG7mzzEeQn9li2GkqbBfTcZ2cXqAQ

Perhaps Beeunfriendly you'll also observe the synergism of sugar in the formulation.

Interestingly the second paper goes on to say " The suggested 3.1 g per hive dose in Ramallo et al. (2008) is therefore 6.2 g lower than the maximum OA dose calculated in this study based on the NOEL value."
The NOEL effect is "no observed effect level"
Means we can use a lot more than we do with no expected side-effects on the bees.
I doubt you could physically get enough OA crystals into a vaporizer to affect the bees.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

.
Professor Ratnieks seems to have very limited experience about beekeeping.

I wonder has he ever nursed bees.

Yes, he has kept bees for over thirty years I believe - I don't know about nursing though - his bees don't seem to be sick and laden with varroa, although I don't know how many degrees he has to go on the shelf next to his masters and his PhD

 

[Finman]

Yes, he has kept bees for over thirty years I believe - I don't know about nursing though - his bees don't seem to be sick and laden with varroa, although I don't know how many degrees he has to go on the shelf next to his masters and his PhD

30 years is enough to learn everything about beekeeping.
.
I bet that he has 100 degrees Fahrenheit.
.

 

[Karol]

Interestingly the second paper goes on to say " The suggested 3.1 g per hive dose in Ramallo et al. (2008) is therefore 6.2 g lower than the maximum OA dose calculated in this study based on the NOEL value."
The NOEL effect is "no observed effect level"
Means we can use a lot more than we do with no expected side-effects on the bees.
I doubt you could physically get enough OA crystals into a vaporizer to affect the bees.

You should qualify your statement to prevent confusion on dosing between different methods of application.

 

[Beefriendly]

You should qualify your statement to prevent confusion on dosing between different methods of application.

How do you treat your bees for varroa if you feel that OA is dangerous to them?