How often can you split a colony?

[Greggorio]

What I mean is if your aim were to increase your hives rather than produce honey but to do it in such a way that did not risk your colonies then how many is likely or feasible in one year to produce? And using what methods?

You can be vague as I'm sure it relates to how well the colonies are doing among many other factors. More of a hypothetical as honey isn't my aim as much as selling nucs (though that could all change next year, we'll see)

 

[Finman]

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First you must learn to nurse bees and get experience how colonies tend to live. Then you find yourself , what is possible. Without skill you will meet huge money losses.

New beekeepers do not understand, or they do not mind, how much build up takes time and how much Queen rearing cycle takes time from Queen egg to first qyeen's emerged workers.

There is no recipe, how to do it without skill.

 

[Finman]

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Now you have two hives. Now you should have in your hives high quality queens, which make big Winter clusters. Then those colonies grow in spring, and you must know, how to handle big colonies. Those big colonies will produce masses bees, what you need when you make nucs.

To me big colony is 6-9 langstroth boxes and it has 3 brood boxes in summer.

Beginners are earger to split too early their colonies and stop the build up.
Big hives grow 4times faster than nuc. IT is just a physical law.

But swarming, not mated Queen, nosema, varroa, bad luck, poor Queen or what ever may do, that yours 6 box hive has only 3 boxes or one box dead bees. IT does not go accordig a good plan.

 

[Greggorio]

As with most things unless you have an expert to hand then you learn by reading and doing. I've got lets say 8 months of reading and then the doing. If I lose bees because of it then that could happen the following year or the year after that. It may occur that I do not feel confident to try for many more years but that wasn't the point of my question, I'm curious as to what is feasibly possible and if my eventual aim is to try and rear and sell nucs then it seems silly to wait years to learn how to do it. It does not mean if someone says "oh you can split a colony 8 times" that I'm going to do that next year.

 

[Hivemaker.]

http://www.apimondia.com/apiacta/slovenia/en/yeganehrad.pdf

 

[Finman]

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It took me 7 years that no surprises happened in beekeeping.

Most beekeepers do not learn beekeeping ever. They just have hives and everything goes without big efforts.

 

[Finman]

http://www.apimondia.com/apiacta/slovenia/en/yeganehrad.pdf

Hehe heh heh. You need few millions pounds to buy property where you put those 1000 hives and all needed stuff.
Then it becomes colony colaps disorder when pollen is finnish. Then wife wants to divorce and take 80% of your property.

 

[Tremyfro]

http://www.apimondia.com/apiacta/slovenia/en/yeganehrad.pdf

Certainly very impressive! Scary though.
Greggorio...I am a new beekeeper too.... I understand your question. I wanted to increase the number of colonies too. Last year I had 2 colonies and a Nuc to go through the winter. One of the colonies built up quickly in the early spring. I fed it and soon it filled a 14x12 box and a national brood box. I split it down to 6 nucs...one failed. I learnt a lot from doing this.
To make sure you clearly understand the timings of queen cell, capping and emergence of queens.
Don't be disappointed if your grafts fail...the bees know best and can make their own queen cells...be grateful!
When you get the queen cells ......don't put them in nucs but instead....use the main colony to feed them well.
To make sure each split have sufficient nurse bees and food.
To do the splits at a time when queens can get mated.
To be patient....
If I hadn't tried this...then I wouldn't have learnt so much...some people advised caution and I did proceed with heart in mouth at times.....the forum helped hugely with advice...for which I am grateful.
Now I have 3 maturing colonies, 4 large nucs...which are now hived, 1 new Nuc and a weak Nuc...which had a dud queen so lags behind somewhat. It is on the cards for a combine soon depending on how it gets on in the next few weeks.
It has been an experience I wouldn't have missed...it had its ups and downs but I am thrilled with the results so far.
I was also lucky that none of my colonies have swarmed...so far! So didn't have to deal with AS etc. I expect that will come my way next year.
If I get them all through the coming winter...then perhaps next year will be a honey year!

 

[dexter's shed]

What I mean is if your aim were to increase your hives rather than produce honey but to do it in such a way that did not risk your colonies then how many is likely or feasible in one year to produce? And using what methods?

You can be vague as I'm sure it relates to how well the colonies are doing among many other factors. More of a hypothetical as honey isn't my aim as much as selling nucs (though that could all change next year, we'll see)

change over to rose hives, then follow the video below

https://youtu.be/eSPqiPgYq08

 

[YorkshireBees]

What I mean is if your aim were to increase your hives rather than produce honey but to do it in such a way that did not risk your colonies then how many is likely or feasible in one year to produce? And using what methods?

You can be vague as I'm sure it relates to how well the colonies are doing among many other factors. More of a hypothetical as honey isn't my aim as much as selling nucs (though that could all change next year, we'll see)

There are far too many factors to give a straight answer.

Location, weather, strength of colony, queen efficiency, forage availability etc. etc.

What may work for one person may not for another. I could say I could make at least 8 Nucs from one of my best colonies but timing and reading the bees is something learned by experience NOT in a book.

ps. I'm still learning, I believe you never stop with beekeeping.

 

[Greggorio]

using Rose hives in France would be a nightmare. Everything here is Dadant or to a lesser extent Warre. I'd have an utterly different size to everyone even the brits out here who may use some more common British hive sizes. Which would make selling nucs really problematic. Also I think copying the Rose method with Dadant sized brood boxes may be excessive as they are huge compared to the others. Though not sure how big a Rose box tends to be

 

[Millet]

change over to rose hives, then follow the video below

https://youtu.be/eSPqiPgYq08

I have watched a fair few of that fellow's video's and he makes a lot of sense to me..

 

[ugcheleuce]

What I mean is if your aim were to increase your hives rather than produce honey but to do it in such a way that did not risk your colonies then how many is likely or feasible in one year to produce? And using what methods?

Every year is different, so I don't think you'll have much success if you have only two colonies to begin with. But my suggestion is that you sacrifice one of your colonies as an experiment. I'm no expert, and my bee math is poor, but why not:

Select your strongest colony, and take out the queen plus three frames (with bees) and put them in a 6-frame hive (plus foundation). Then wait 10 days for the now queenless colony to make capped queen cells. Then split the queenless colony into smaller colonies (all of them in 6-frame hives), and make sure there is a queen cell in each of those colonies. Why don't you make two 3-frame colonies and two 4-frame colonies (putting foundation in the empty slots), to see the difference? Then wait 20 days and then check whether there are now laying queens in those hives, and if so, overwinter them.

Or, if you're concerned that may you not get enough queen cells, after you've removed the queen from the main colony, immediately split the now queenless colony into 4 hives (6-frame boxes), and wait 10 days for them to create closed queen cells. Then split up the frames and bees and queen cells into the multiple 6-frame hives, and wait 20 days before checking if the new queens are laying.

I think you barely still have time to do this (if you start by 1 August, then the first new bees should be hatching by 1 October. You can of course boost your nucs a bit by adding frames of closed brood to them from your remaining strong colony.

I remember reading somewhere how many frames are needed in a nuc to be certain that the nuc will survive the winter, according to the month in which the nuc is made. I can't recall exactly, but it was something like June = 2 frames, July = 3 frames, August = 4 frames (i.e. if you make the nuc in August, you need to start it off with at least 4 frames). Can anyone confirm this, please?

 

[BeeJayBee]

Also I think copying the Rose method with Dadant sized brood boxes may be excessive as they are huge compared to the others.

You can use dadant shallows as the 'one size box', or the standard langstroth.

Check ITLD's pictures http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=438

 

[ugcheleuce]

Using Rose hives in France would be a nightmare. Everything here is Dadant...

French Dadant hives have shallows. You can use the Rose method with just shallows. The French Dadant shallow has a frame comb area of 0.116 m2 (415x140x2), and the Rose hive has a frame comb area of 0.120 m2 (340x117x2), so you should be fine.

What you *don't* have is the same climate as where the Rose hive method was developed. And if you don't have the same climate, then you won't get the same results. I'm not convinced that the Rose method would help you make more colonies.

 

[Greggorio]

ahhh ok I get it. The Rose method isn't a world apart from the Warre setup which has no broodbox or Queen excluder so it should work find but nucs and swarms our generally sold on brood sized frames. Though it would be easy enough for them to cope with (though the French around here are not great with change as a rule)

 

[Finman]

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What you *don't* have is the same climate as where the Rose hive method was developed. .

That Rosehive "method" is nothing method. I have nursed hives 50 years without excluders. To get more brood you need really good queens. Not average normal.

Then to use only one size boxes, it has nothing new either.

A wheel has been invented again.

You need skills, not tricks.

 

[Greggorio]

That Rosehive "method" is nothing method. I have nursed hives 50 years without excluders. To get more brood you need really good queens. Not average normal.

Then to use only one size boxes, it has nothing new either.

A wheel has been invented again.

You need skills, not tricks.

lol Finnish people are always so cheerful!

Everyone does things differently and if all my colonies die then some lucky bugger is going to get more of my money. I will have learnt what not to do though. Be optimistic! Be supportive! Be happy!!!

 

[Finman]

lol Finnish people are always so cheerful!

Everyone does things differently and if all my colonies die then some lucky bugger is going to get more of my money. I will have learnt what not to do though. Be optimistic! Be supportive! Be happy!!!

Your all 2 colonies... Be optimistic! They swarm and multiply by themselves.

Everyone cannot do differently beekeeping. Question is that bees stand many kind of beekeepers and sometimes they do not.

Why beginners want to use methods which experienced beeks have already abandoned. They try to make differently. ... Because beginners learn when they make mistakes and they do not learn when they are teached. Adults are so proud...

 

[Greggorio]

Your all 2 colonies... Be optimistic! They swarm and multiply by themselves.

Everyone cannot do differently beekeeping. Question is that bees stand many kind of beekeepers and sometimes they do not.

Why beginners want to use methods which experienced beeks have already abandoned. They try to make differently. ... Because beginners learn when they make mistakes and they do not learn when they are teached. Adults are so proud...

Beginners learn when they are taught, not when they are condescended to. So lets leave this where it is. You have a different opinion and regardless of what you might say from this point on I will still do what I want to do, whatever that may be. So lets not start on a bad note when I've only just joined this forum because you think you know better. Experience has taught me that those who shout the loudest, that they know the most, tend to know the least. I'm sure that's not you though but perhaps practice your teaching delivery