How much thymol in syrup?

[Beezy]

Hi,

I've got some of Hivemaker's thymol recipe but am unsure how much to add to my half litre of syrup. I only have one hive so I only make up 1kg of sugar at a time. It says add 5ml per gallon of syrup, so how much is that for 1/2 litre?

Google says 1 gallon is 4.5 litres so does that mean I have to add about 0.6ml of thymol? Is that going to be enough? Maths was never my strong point!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yes, 0.6 ml sounds about right for half a litre
At this time of the year you should be giving the bees loads of syrup to build up stores over the winter so you could give them a lot more in one go (a gallon or more at the time. The other thing about HM's thymol mix is that ot stops the syrup going mouldy so you could make up a gallon and it will keep.
Hope this helps
Emyr

 

[sandysman]

The other thing you need to remember is to use 5ml per gallon if treating for nosema and only 3ml per gallon if you only need it to stop the syrup from fermenting.

Andy

 

[Arfermo]

Beebase has a leaflet that makes syrup making simpler than other recipes I have seen. However, I have not tried it but I am sure that it would not be issued if there was any problem with it and I will certainly give it a go soon.
See the attchment. The relevant paragraph says
"If syrup is stored for any length of time then a scummy black fungal growth may appear. This can be prevented by adding a little thymol. Thymol does not dissolve readily in water but a solution can be made up in a small sealable bottle. Fill it to one third with thymol crystals* and top the bottle up with surgical spirit. Add 2.5 ml. of this solution to 4.5 l. of sugar syrup or half a teaspoon to a gallon of syrup".

 

[For want of a better word]

30g Thymol dissolved in 5ml iso propyl alcohol in boiling waterbath
1 teaspoon of lecethin dissolved in 140 ml water also in boiling waterbath

mix and allow to cool
add 1ml per liter to 2;1 caster sugar syrup.

HM's recipe

C@W@Jones@@ has thymol in smaller packs
fleabytes for IPA KaKe stuff... & lecethin

lecethin works as an emulsifying agents and binds the thymol in a soluble suspension in the syrup.

simples really

 

[Beezy]

Thanks for the replies. 0.6ml should be about right then. I'm intending to treat for nosema so I want the higher dose, rather than just stopping the syrup from fermenting. I also prefer making smaller batches of syrup and checking the bees every couple of days to see if they need more.

 

[itma]

Thanks for the replies. 0.6ml should be about right then. ...

I make it closer to 0.7 than 0.6 for a kilo. It shouldn't be terribly critical though.
Getting the thymol well mixed or not is going to make more difference. Are you using Lecithin or any other emulsifier?

Are you OK for measuring those sort of small quantities?

 

[Beezy]

I make it closer to 0.7 than 0.6 for a kilo. It shouldn't be terribly critical though.
Getting the thymol well mixed or not is going to make more difference. Are you using Lecithin or any other emulsifier?

Are you OK for measuring those sort of small quantities?

Sorry, should've been clearer: I've got the made up stuff from a friend, but I'm only adding it to small quantities of syrup a bit at a time.

 

[alanf]

Quick sense check:

Hivemaker (as reported by @icanhopit) has 30g thymol at a density of 0.97 g/cm3 (http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/TH/thymol.html) in around 150 ml of liquid (5ml lecithin?). That's 180ml which contains half a gram of thymol in 3ml per 4.5 litres syrup to treat fungal growth (@sandysman)

Beebase (as linked by @Arfermo) suggests one third of a container of thymol and dissolve in surgical spirit. For an irregular crystal that's one third by volume but nearer one sixth by weight when dissolved by topping up with alcohol. Dosing 2.5ml in 4.5 litres is adding just under half a gram of thymol.

Pretty much the same concentration of thymol and probably within measuring error the same dose rate (two thirds of a ml per litre of syrup) for the same purpose.

Hivemaker does allow for a higher dose (5ml per 4.5 litres) or just over 1ml per per litre of syrup if you want more than just the anti fungal level. Has anyone tried the beebase recipe at that dose? It could deliver around the same level of thymol.

 

[drstitson]

beezy - just checking - when you refer to 1/2 litre with respect to your 1kg batches do you mean the final volume of solution that results from 1kg sugar:500ml water? that is not 500ml.

As an example: 20kg sugar + 10 litres water = nearly 6 gallons.

Or are you measuring out 500ml aliquots of the resulting solution?

 

[For want of a better word]

beezy - just checking - when you refer to 1/2 litre with respect to your 1kg batches do you mean the final volume of solution that results from 1kg sugar:500ml water? that is not 500ml.

As an example: 20kg sugar + 10 litres water = nearly 6 gallons.

Or are you measuring out 500ml aliquots of the resulting solution?

but....................

BUCKET CHEMISTRY IS NEAR ENOUGH SURELY !!​

 

[drstitson]

but we're talking a potential almost 3 fold variation in volumes.

not really an issue with under dosing thymol BUT overdosing oxalic later on?

"BUCKET CHEMISTRY IS NEAR ENOUGH SURELY" - i use a small specimen pot - 30g thymol comes up to the top of the label.

 

[For want of a better word]

not really an issue with under dosing thymol BUT overdosing oxalic later on?.........

need to check out your weighing machine for the OA dribble if you must use it!

1kg sugar 1 liter water 75g oxallic acid dihydrate is 7,5% OA or 4.5% w/w
trickle 5ml per seam at 20 deg C
a 6% solution of OA is available but needs to be diluted to a 41/2 % solution in a 30% sucrose solution

No wonder REAL Chemists work in Molar concentrations!

( even the good old Normal Solutions got sent to the dusty shelf}

a molar solution is the molecular weight of the chemical dissolved and made up to 1 liter of water
a mole of gas occupies 1 cu meter at STP (at sea level)

Now my cider recipe calls for one cwt of ripe cider apples pressed at 4 tons and placed in a firkin and left until drinkable..................

 

[For want of a better word]

What were those coinage check weights again... 20p coin weighs 3g?

 

[alanf]

What were those coinage check weights again... 20p coin weighs 3g?

20p is nominally 5g, 1 pound is 9.5g

Nominal because they do wear. I have no idea of the tolerance level used by banks. Car park pay machines are notoriously fussy because of the number of fakes around.

 

[dclewis]

"As an example: 20kg sugar + 10 litres water = nearly 6 gallons."

I don't know about anyone else, but I pull my hair out when I see someone mix SI and imperial units like this. Is it useful? Why do it? It just confuses me, so I would think it confuses others too!

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

"As an example: 20kg sugar + 10 litres water = nearly 6 gallons."

I don't know about anyone else, but I pull my hair out when I see someone mix SI and imperial units like this. Is it useful? Why do it? It just confuses me, so I would think it confuses others too!

- but in this case the OP was referring to a recipe that called for gallons that confused them as they were operating in metric, so (just this once ) the doc is probably justified

 

[Beezy]

beezy - just checking - when you refer to 1/2 litre with respect to your 1kg batches do you mean the final volume of solution that results from 1kg sugar:500ml water? that is not 500ml.

As an example: 20kg sugar + 10 litres water = nearly 6 gallons.

Or are you measuring out 500ml aliquots of the resulting solution?

Oh. So I should be measuring the mixture once it's got the sugar added to see how many litres it is, and then add the thymol solution? Does anyone who's good at maths happen to know how many litres that would be for 1kg sugar + 0.5 litres water?

 

[drstitson]

Simple explanation - it is easy to work in SI when adding to the big vat using known amounts of sugar and measured out water.

However when the end result is gauged in terms of how many hives/feeders it'll stretch to the imperial measure was more handy when working on 1 black bucket per hive.

In my book when being imprecise it is better to use the closest single reliable unit - in this case i know how short of the mark i am when i get to bucket 6 but without transferring that by measuring jug 500ml at a time to another container i have no idea how many mls short i actually am. should i say just over 4 litres or just under 4.5 litres!!! too much precision.

1 bucket = 1 teaspoon thymol mix (or rather a 6ml shot from a syringe.)

 

[itma]

not really an issue with under dosing thymol BUT overdosing oxalic later on?.........

need to check out your weighing machine for the OA dribble if you must use it!

1kg sugar 1 liter water 75g oxallic acid dihydrate is 7,5% OA or 4.5% w/w
trickle 5ml per seam at 20 deg C
a 6% solution of OA is available but needs to be diluted to a 41/2 % solution in a 30% sucrose solution
...

What were those coinage check weights again... 20p coin weighs 3g?

Maybe worth a mention that you can find some extraordinarily precise calculator-sized scales cheaply (well under a tenner inc post?), new, (yes usually mailed from China) on eBay. Search for 'pocket scale' ...
I'm on my second - they aren't water/rust proof ... but I'd strongly recommend to home bakers, brewers, charcutiers, chocolatiers ... I presume they are mass-produced for the home-herb and home-chemistry traders ...

Even if you only believe the thing to 0.1g instead of the typical indicated 0.01g, its a massive accuracy improvement over a kitchen scale working in 2g (or 5g) 'clicks'. And most can be calibrated to ensure believability.
Good thing to have around. Just be sure to only use it on a dry worktop!