How much honey does a hive need to overwinter?

[B+.]

Bees are in Bedfordshire, mostly suburban and are local mongrels.

I think the people who talk about overwintering on single broods come fresh from heather moors where the bees have been able to forage on heather throughout August/Spetember. Our bees haven't had a decent feed since July

 

[Thymallus]

Not sure I follow your logic here B+.
I tend to base the number of brood boxes/supers for overwintering on the size of the colony. Some of mine are on single brood, some on double, some on 1 1/2.
The ones that went to the heather just needed less winter feed.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Our bees haven't had a decent feed since July

Have you considered moving all your bees to the heather?

 

[B+.]

Not sure I follow your logic here B+.

Blacky50 lives in the same county I do Thymallus so we experience similar conditions. The bees need to be fed here from July onwards or they will starve. There is very little natural forage. The colonies can still be quite strong though and the queen will still be laying so they need enough space for both.
I'm just talking about local conditions. A single National isn't enough. I tried for years and they don't have enough space for stores and brood

 

[Thymallus]

Perhaps what you mean is your bees don't have enough room? Some of mine will be fine in a single brood box.

 

[Blacky50]

An experienced beekeeper friend does over winter her bees in Bedfordshire on a single national brood box and they do fine, however I wonder if most use more space such brood & half, 14x12 etc. I'm going to ask others to see what they do.

Commenting on available forage: this year there was little after July, however last year there was more and then stacks of ivy nectar which wasn't always appreciated by the bees or the beekeeper this spring. I mentioned that my bees are mostly in suburban locations as this seems to provide better forage (more evenly spread) than those in rural areas (which are a bit boom or bust with OSR, borage, etc)

 

[Finman]

Blacky50 lives in the same county I do Thymallus so we experience similar conditions. The bees need to be fed here from July onwards or they will starve. There is very little natural forage.

The colonies can still be quite strong though and the queen will still be laying so they need enough space for both.
I'm just talking about local conditions. A single National isn't enough. I tried for years and they don't have enough space for stores and brood

Local is not an explanation. It is your fault if you shoose that kind of location. I know lots of pastures where I could get nothing if I keep bees there.

What is the goal? strong hives or big yields? Why you keep strong hives if you cannot get honey.

******

In single or two brood? Many professionals in Finland keep 2 brood boxes and then in the middle of season they limit laying into one box, and over winter in one box. And they really are mad in their opinions.

And then the number of hives in same site is much more essential than one or two box. And in that issue beekeepers become again mad in their opinions.

 

[Finman]

.
couple years ago I met hives in the barren pine forrest. I phoned to the beekeeper and first question was, what is your yield in that pine forrest?

He got 35 kg/hive, and he thought that it was spleded, more than he can sell.

At same year my friend at same "local" area got average yield 170 kg/hive.

Like I have told. I can get 3 times bigger yield in some Place, and the distance is only 5 km between these sites.


Yes, local or location means nothing, It is between your ears. Does it mean 1000 km or 5 km. Just fine to talk about "local". It is your choise, and nothing else.


25 years ago I explained to me that yield 20kg/hive depended on weather. Next year I got again 20 kg/hive in same location, but in anothre Place 5 km away every hive went over 100 kg/hive.

Then I realized that it was me who choosed the location, not weather.

.

 

[Finman]

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How much honey to over wintering? - Nothing. All is sugar. I extract all honey to get the yield high. No mercy.

I do not donate any honey to gnomes. It is hard job to run hives around the the year and then donate half of yield to gnomes. They must live without me.

..........................................

.

 

[daroco]

Blacky50 lives in the same county I do Thymallus so we experience similar conditions. The bees need to be fed here from July onwards or they will starve. There is very little natural forage. The colonies can still be quite strong though and the queen will still be laying so they need enough space for both.
I'm just talking about local conditions. A single National isn't enough. I tried for years and they don't have enough space for stores and brood

I'd agree - can't see how single brood would provide the space, and that's before factoring in B+ is a queen breeder, so his queens are undoubtedly of a higher quality than my mongrels (the one decent queen still had virtually a full box of brood last time I checked). There's also the difference between scraping through with luck on a single box and being sure that you've done everything you can to make sure they are well provisioned for the winter.

 

[B+.]

Have you considered moving all your bees to the heather?

I never have in the past but may have to consider it.

 

[Thymallus]

There's also the difference between scraping through with luck on a single box and being sure that you've done everything you can to make sure they are well provisioned for the winter.

This is the bit I don't understand. I have colonies that would be lost in more than a single brood box. Why would I want to give them extra empty space to lose heat to, as you guys seem to be suggesting?
I wouldn't overwinter my larger colonies in a single brood box though.

Surely the size of the colony dictates the number of brood boxes/supers to overwinter in? Not the other way round.

 

[B+.]

I have colonies that would be lost in more than a single brood box. Why would I want to give them extra empty space to lose heat to, as you guys seem to be suggesting?
I wouldn't overwinter my larger colonies in a single brood box though.

Surely the size of the colony dictates the number of brood boxes/supers to overwinter in? Not the other way round.

I guess it comes down to the type of bee you're using. I've used carnica for so long now I had come to expect their overwintering and spring build-up behaviour as the norm. This has been a reminder for me just how different they are.

 

[Hivemaker.]

This has been a reminder for me just how different they are.

Many tiny colonies here over winter well with just a mugful of bees and a kilo of stores.

 

[Thymallus]

I have Buckfast colonies that are mainly double brood box and will stay that way for the winter. But my late summer, promoted from nuc to national brood box, colonies are not yet that large. They will remain in single brood boxes overwinter. Next year they will probably be the ones overwintering in double brood and that seasons "replacements" will probably overwinter in singles or whatever their current size tells me I think they need.
Would you put a small carniolan colony into a double brood over winter?
In my experience they just don't don't expand from nuc straight into double brood boxes. Although I have yet to keep to carniolans

 

[Finman]

Many tiny colonies here over winter well with just a mugful of bees and a kilo of stores.

Yeah. The loss of money is only 50 cents! Jippii!

But that colony is not able to bring honey next summer.

I hate small colonies.

 

[B+.]

Would you put a small carniolan colony into a double brood over winter?
In my experience they just don't don't expand from nuc straight into double

No. I would go by their size at the end of July (because there's not that much natural forage available here after then). If they hadn't expanded into a double by that point, I would overwinter them as a single. I suppose, if they had access to Himalyan Balsam or heather, they would produce a lot more honey, but, there's none of that around here. I am going to have to give some serious thought to that.
Carnica explode in the spring, so, they need that extra space to continue growing unchecked. I would have to give extra space to those that overwintered as singles but those that overwintered as doubles would be fine. They usually have 4 frames of sealed stores left in the spring so, I suppose, you could use smaller equipment but you'd need to be ontop of things and add extra space in March.

 

[Finman]

In my experience they just don't don't expand from nuc straight into double brood boxes. Although I have yet to keep to carniolans

Carniolans expands exactly at same speed as Italians, when you feed to boath pollen or pollen patty.

Carniolans start brooding earlier, because their use to have better pollen stores after Winter than Italians. Italians use to eate pollen stores in autumn and rear new bees with stores.

You must select and breed good layers continuously. They do not drop into your yard from heaven.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Yeah. The loss of money is only 50 cents! Jippii!

But that colony is not able to bring honey next summer.

I hate small colonies.

But they make a lot of money, the queens are used in spring for re-queening any failing queens, doing splits, making up nucs, and the tiny colony goes on all year round, in summer producing more bees/brood for more nucs and even 3lb packages, plus getting several more queens mated, the last one of which carries them on over winter to the following spring, and so on it goes.

Small and low on resources, high on return, i like small colonies for these uses.

 

[pargyle]

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How much honey to over wintering? - Nothing. All is sugar. I extract all honey to get the yield high. No mercy.

Well, we are going to disagree on that Finnie .. Bees lived on honey for 35 million years or so and you think they are OK on sugar ?

Perhaps one of the reasons why your bees are so unhealthy and infested with varroa most of the time ... ?