How much honey does a hive need to overwinter?

[Thymallus]

When...was in in late may or October, what strain of bees are they, Amm or Italian.

Good point. Mid-July and local mongrels, so potentially a strong colony for them.

 

[Goran]

And therein lies one of the biggest mysteries in beekeeping. What constitutes a reasonable sized colony! Or a strong colony or a weak one.
We regularly bandy these words around as reference points but rarely define what they mean.
For example, a colleague proudly showed my his "strong" colony of bees. It was on 6 frames of brood in a single national brood box. To my set of reference points that is a weak colony.
It's a perennial problem that could do with addressing in some way.

Officialy taken from a book for my area:
early spring ( March-April), late summer ( August-September): nr. of seams -minimum 7, nr. of brood frames - minimum 4
late spring and early summer ( May-July): nr. of seams -minimum 10, nr. of brood frames - minimum 7

All above these values consider as strong and below are considered weak.

Forgot we only have carnies.
My experience - beginning of April 6-8 frames of brood, mid April 10-15 frames of brood. The peak of colony strength unfortunatelly come in 2nd part of black locust forage and afterward.. Second part of May. In May they are mostly within three boxes full of bees, some weaker remain in 2 boxes.
My main forage is black locust and all attention is on preparing colonies for it. Afterward it goes with some easier, calmer and less intervented by beekeeper way. Then is focus usually turned in qrearing, splitting, requeening and preparing for winter.

About needed stores.. they have side frames full with stores and rest central frames with heavy arches of stores. Stimulative feed I started in January with fondant/pattie. This year will start in February. I use usually from 2-4 fondants ( 1-1,5kg size) in this late winter period per colony.

 

[user 6228]

And therein lies one of the biggest mysteries in beekeeping. What constitutes a reasonable sized colony! Or a strong colony or a weak one.
We regularly bandy these words around as reference points but rarely define what they mean.
For example, a colleague proudly showed my his "strong" colony of bees. It was on 6 frames of brood in a single national brood box. To my set of reference points that is a weak colony.
It's a perennial problem that could do with addressing in some way.

In the context of winter how strong or weak colony is related to how much they can heat their nest in any given set of conditions.

Thats why I introduced the idea of the Colony mass to nest thermal conductance ratio (MCR)

this number brings together the size of the colony together with the shape and material of the hive to indicate a comparative level of stress the bees will be under.

The beekeeping practices of:
combining colonies, putting a small colony into a nuc, addition insulation are all methods of increasing the MCR.

 

[Finman]

.
Question is not only about heating.

A cluster changes its places and bees must have allways food under their feet.
In cold weather every seem has isolated gang of bees. If cold continues, food may be finish in the seam and that gang die.

In mild winter weather a cluster reformulate itself and moves over new food.
.
Big colony has not much difficulties to reformulate itself and move to new food site.

 

[fred scuttle]

Of course. Its much better to think ahead and provide adequate stores in late September/October though. I would even start earlier in my area so they have time to organise their stores for winter. I am amazed at the number of people who still think a single National brood box is enough to over-winter. A reasonable sized colony needs much more than that.

Indeed and well said..I'd identified the colonies I was not merging and moved them into polyhives and have been feeding carefully since late July.... They are my insurance policy for any losses and will be keeping a close eye on, well insulated and fondant fed if they need it

 

[Into the lions den]

I am amazed at the number of people who still think a single National brood box is enough to over-winter. A reasonable sized colony needs much more than that.

I overwinter all my Smith hives (about 800) as singles. It is just fine. Same size internally as a National.

 

[B+.]

I overwinter all my Smith hives (about 800) as singles. It is just fine. Same size internally as a National.

Ok. Point taken. If you pay careful attention to feeding as the colony is shrinking back naturally, it can be done. The problem is that most people aren't full time beekeepers though. Jobs like feeding often have to be fitted around weather and other commitments.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Ok. Point taken. If you pay careful attention to feeding as the colony is shrinking back naturally, it can be done. The problem is that most people aren't full time beekeepers though. Jobs like feeding often have to be fitted around weather and other commitments.

Only to be done by full time professional beekeepers then.

 

[B+.]

Only to be done by full time professional beekeepers then.

I didn't say that.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I didn't say that.

That's right, plenty of skilled hobby beekeepers also manage to do it, without any problems at all.

 

[B+.]

That's right, plenty of skilled hobby beekeepers also manage to do it, without any problems at all.

That may well be so. We'll see how many people are rushing around in the spring feeding emergency fondant

 

[Hivemaker.]

That may well be so. We'll see how many people are rushing around in the spring feeding emergency fondant

LOL...or taking out surplus honey combs and giving empty combs for extra laying space.

 

[oliver90owner]

This thread.-

Oh dear, we have one or two posting vociferously on this thread.- We have one poster telling all and sundry that Q/Es are only apparently removed to allow bees to reach fondant. Total poppycock, of course.

Now we have another, questioning all sorts of colony descriptors and now quoting a post and replying on a different level.. One is clearly including the word 'skilled' while the other must be referring to, mostly, the others.- There is, of course, plenty of scope for doubting the benefit of using fondant at thiat particular time.- OK for the most, perhaps, but those with some skill would be using 1:1 syrup when appropriate.

Weak colonies are recognisable by most into their second season, unless they are beekeepers by numbers.- Personally, I can see no reason whatsoever to be feeding carefully for winter from the end of July.- I can see no reason why the weather makes any great deal of difference for feeding.- 'Other commitments' are beyond the scope of the thread.- Full time beekeepers will have a lot more colonies than the poster.- Having only a few colonies is clearly the majority of beekeepers - it has never been anything but the norm, surely? -So not more of a problem now than at any other period in time?- People choose to keep bees either as a hobby, a part-time occupation or even as full employmnt.- Either don't keep bees or work around the inconveniences is what I say.

I, too, thought the inital post was surprising, but had I commented the knives would have been out in double quick time - likely by at least one who added his comment later.- Amazing or just undercover hypocrisy?-

Fact. -Many bees are over-wintered in a single deep in the UK.- Separating overwintering and spring expansion might be a difficult concept for some.- I just think it is the first phase of the new brooding season.- But, there again it might even depend on when you think the beekeeping year ends and starts.-

Weak colonies should be close to fitting in a deep five frame nuc, if not already at only that size. Those that are not functioning as a full colony would be expected (eg not taking down feed, when they clearly ought to be) to fall in that category. -If one cannot work out that feeding to fill the box would take an inordinate period of time, tough.- Believe me, there are some on the forum that might fit that group.


The books are much in agreement on wintering stores. -Over decades of beekeepers' experiences. -I suggest reading a few reliable tomes would not go amiss. -My bees have more than enough stores for both winter and - usually - for spring expansion. -Those that leave less need to heft more often.-


End of observations (rant).

 

[fred scuttle]

RAB are you seriously saying to keep your queen excluder on in winter so it will help the cluster reach the fondant.? Poppycock I'd say....New beeks will now be leaving qx's on if they blindly followed your musings on this forum ...Regarding feeding a swarm I hived in a polynuc from someone's fencepost carefully from the end of July, would you rather I'd left it to starve?

 

[oliver90owner]

RAB are you seriously saying to keep your queen excluder on in winter so it will help the cluster reach the fondant.?-

No! What I am seriously saying is that your post was thoroughly misleading to anyone who does not know why the Q/E is removed in winter. You are one of those who does not know why.

The Q/E is removed for accessing the upper food resources without any risk of the queen being stranded below the excluder, being cooled to the point of death (or even to a level where she may survive but no longer be able to perform). Very simple and nothing to do with feeding fondant over the crownboard. Left on directly beneath the crownboard would not prevent access to that source of food. It may be a litte bit of a hindrance and would represent a small amount of 'vain' space over the cluster, if framed, but no more than that.

Do try to get your facts right before posting. Little wonder new beeks get the wrong message. One question you ight ask yourself is: Would a queen excluder stop the bees using stores from a shallow directly above it? My answer would be no, but it could. Any gap between bees and stores can be an impediment to weak colonies reaching separated stores in a very cold hive. Just another of the reasons why I changed to 14 x 12s. KISS principle in action once again.

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

Well said that man!
Dusty

 

[For want of a better word]

Do try to get your facts right before posting (writing). Little wonder new beeks get the wrong message

I only wish a few of the writers of "How to keep bees" books did some research instead of cutting and pasting the misinformation written by their " often fated" forebears... positive plagiarism IMOHO !

Mytten da

 

[fred scuttle]

I for one wouldn't leave it on full stop, whether it was between a super of stores or the crown board with fondant above... Be careful with your miserable pedantry on this point RAB..

 

[Blacky50]

So it seems as if I have given my bees excess stores by over wintering on brood & half. Bees are in Bedfordshire, mostly suburban and are local mongrels.

Next year I will......there's always scope for learning!

Is there an easy way to ensure that stores from syrup fed in September don't end up in honey for extraction? Probably make sure I don't extract from the half that they were over wintered on. Anything else I should do?

 

[Finman]

So it seems as if I have given my bees excess stores by over wintering on brood & half. Bees are in Bedfordshire, mostly suburban and are local mongrels.

Next year I will......there's always scope for learning!

Is there an easy way to ensure that stores from syrup fed in September don't end up in honey for extraction? Probably make sure I don't extract from the half that they were over wintered on. Anything else I should do?

It is very easy. YOu take off extra food frames when new honey yield begins.