How many cells could I raise?

[domino]

Quick question.

I'm planning to use the method on the NBU site. Split the frames, leave the queen in a box below an excluder and put the eggs in another box above the excluder with grafts.

I'm not the most gifted grafted and typically get a 60% -70% take, so just graft ten at a time.

My question is in a reasonably strong single national hive if I asked those bees to raise 20 grafts would it be detrimental to the quality of the resultant bees?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Quick question.

I'm planning to use the method on the NBU site. Split the frames, leave the queen in a box below an excluder and put the eggs in another box above the excluder with grafts.

I'm not the most gifted grafted and typically get a 60% -70% take, so just graft ten at a time.

My question is in a reasonably strong single national hive if I asked those bees to raise 20 grafts would it be detrimental to the quality of the resultant bees?

depends how strong the hive is, if you have a cell raiser it needs to be packed with bees

 

[Ian123]

If your planning on doing the method above you need more separation than just an excluder between boxes, I would say at least 1 super as a minimum and far better with 2. Raising cells in a q-right box can work well during the main season but I’ve found results drop right off early or late season.

 

[Rockingod]

depends how strong the hive is, if you have a cell raiser it needs to be packed with bees

I would totally agree with JB on this. The 'cell raiser' MUST be absolutely chocker block with bees (preferably the younger ones) whose pharyngeal glands are at their peak to produce the royal jelly needed to fill the QCs. A national brood box cell raiser should easily cope with building 30+ QCs at an average success rate of circa 75-80%.

 

[Apple]

I have "pushed" a double brood =1/2 standard National down to one box with the queen.
Then qx and moved brood frames above..... used the (super1/2) to put started cells in... easily 30.

Use a totally crammed nuc with a starter cell board ( 50 cell grafts) and select best started from this.

70 to 80% success at this stage!

 

[domino]

I add a few frames of seal broad before I start rearing to bump up the young bee numbers. I'll try 20 and see what happens.

 

[Michael Palmer]

I make a cell builder by adding brood to a strong colony, above an excluder, to boost the colony to swarming strength. 10 days later I separate the colony using the box above the excluder as the cell builder. This box needs to be checked for emergency cells before adding the graft. Over the years, I found 1/4-1/3 will start emergency cells. No more. Seems risky to use this NBU method

 

[domino]

I make a cell builder by adding brood to a strong colony, above an excluder, to boost the colony to swarming strength. 10 days later I separate the colony using the box above the excluder as the cell builder. This box needs to be checked for emergency cells before adding the graft. Over the years, I found 1/4-1/3 will start emergency cells. No more. Seems risky to use this NBU method

That is the risk in the system.

 

[Apple]

I make a cell builder by adding brood to a strong colony, above an excluder, to boost the colony to swarming strength. 10 days later I separate the colony using the box above the excluder as the cell builder. This box needs to be checked for emergency cells before adding the graft. Over the years, I found 1/4-1/3 will start emergency cells. No more. Seems risky to use this NBU method

Sealed brood I presume?

 

[Michael Palmer]

Sealed brood I presume?

Emerging brood, but always some of the 7 combs of brood have some cells emerged with eggs and young larvae

 

[Curly green finger's]

I make a cell builder by adding brood to a strong colony, above an excluder, to boost the colony to swarming strength. 10 days later I separate the colony using the box above the excluder as the cell builder. This box needs to be checked for emergency cells before adding the graft. Over the years, I found 1/4-1/3 will start emergency cells. No more. Seems risky to use this NBU method

The method you are talking about michael would it also work with a double 6 frame nuc?

Or would it be best to use the double nucs to donate brood frames to the cell raiser if needed?

 

[Michael Palmer]

Not sure what you're asking. I harvest brood from overwintered nucs that have built up to a full strength colony but remain in double nuc configuration....but 4 or 5 stories high. I find it easier to work with than working with full sized Langstroth hives. You can harvest frames of brood from whatever you have to work with. Bro Adam used full sized Dadants.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Not sure what you're asking. I harvest brood from overwintered nucs that have built up to a full strength colony but remain in double nuc configuration....but 4 or 5 stories high. I find it easier to work with than working with full sized Langstroth hives. You can harvest frames of brood from whatever you have to work with. Bro Adam used full sized Dadants.

I understand what your saying your method for raising cells with the qx between could this be achieved using strong nucs instead, hopefully I've explained it OK.?

 

[Michael Palmer]

Oh, using a strong nuc as a cell builder? Yes, I suppose you could...assuming the population of nurse bees is high enough. Maybe fewer grafts. I have 48 on my cell bar frame. Maybe you could try 20 to start with?

 

[mbc]

I've used a similar system to Michael's with nucs ie. adding brood in a second box over an excluder, ten days later placing this box on the floor and shaking in the nurse bees from the box with the queen (which I put asside for 6 days closed up in a cool spot before uniting back) and introducing a frame of grafted cells a few hours later (~24 cells). This pushes the bees from 12 frames into a 6 frame box with plenty of resources.
Works well for me for one off grafts.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I'm just trying to think of different ways of being able to graft from the stock I've got.
Concentrating on multiple cell builders at the same time.
Im also now not going to use apidea for my Mating nucs but plan to go for nucs/ brood boxes as double nucs.
My reasons cutting out having to transfer from apidea and all the related equipment.

Im going to be using alot of brood boxes as supers and try and get as many brood frames drawn out as possible this season.

I can see why some just use the same box throughout.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Oh, using a strong nuc as a cell builder? Yes, I suppose you could...assuming the population of nurse bees is high enough. Maybe fewer grafts. I have 48 on my cell bar frame. Maybe you could try 20 to start with?

Thanks Michael I will try it with less cells.

 

[Michael Palmer]

I'm just trying to think of different ways of being able to graft from the stock I've got.
Concentrating on multiple cell builders at the same time.
Im also now not going to use apidea for my Mating nucs but plan to go for nucs/ brood boxes as double nucs.
My reasons cutting out having to transfer from apidea and all the related equipment.

Im going to be using alot of brood boxes as supers and try and get as many brood frames drawn out as possible this season.

I can see why some just use the same box throughout.

I can't see why anyone, raising queens on a small scale, would use mini-nucs to mate the queens. More sensible to mate them in a nuc with the standard frames you already use.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I can't see why anyone, raising queens on a small scale, would use mini-nucs to mate the queens. More sensible to mate them in a nuc with the standard frames you already use.

K. I. S. S

 

[jeff33]

I would totally agree with JB on this. The 'cell raiser' MUST be absolutely chocker block with bees (preferably the younger ones) whose pharyngeal glands are at their peak to produce the royal jelly needed to fill the QCs. A national brood box cell raiser should easily cope with building 30+ QCs at an average success rate of circa 75-80%.

I think the critical part is having a sufficient source of young nurse bees to set-up your mating nucs. Pointless having 30 good virgins if you can't provide them with sufficient entourage. bear in mind that you will need to steal brood frames from hives to build-up your cell raiser and again to fill-in all your mating nucs with nurse bees....you need to have descent amount of hives to supply all that.