hornet trap supplied by Fera

[merylvingien]

I would like to send apoligies to Karol for my post last night, it was unfounded and based on other things happening in my life, not based on anything worth considering here.
Please ignore what i said and listen to him as he will educate regards to wasps and the sensible control of them.

Having said that, he still didnt answer a question from last year that i posed to him. O
As a dedicated wasp controller (i dont do any other job such as rats etc) and probably one of a kind, i obviously get to zap one hell of a lot of wasp nest each year. Trust me when i say, i get sick of it.
Anyway, there was a question that was never resolved about the treatment of nests and guard wasps/facial recognition and nest entrance.

I have studied, filmed, photographed twiddled my thumbs after treating a nest and have not come across the scenario that you mentioned Karol.
I.E returning wasps abandoning the nest after guard wasps being killed.
I by no means want to start any argument or attack as i am still feeling bad about last nights outburst. But i am keen to understand your learnings and what exactly is happening.

From what i have witnessed, it goes like this, application of insectiside is carried out. Some panic is followed for around 5-10 minutes (danger time of getting stung) then as the treatment starts to take effect gaurd wasps obviously got the full brunt of the treatment are now dead. Returning wasps hover around entrance, but gradually re enter nest. Wasps in the nest that got the full on force of the treatment evacuate covered in treatment and blind, fly off in all directions dying.

I know you feel differently from this, but i would like to understand what i have seen time and again, and what you have seen from your studies.

Geniune question without alternate motive

 

[tonybloke]

Because I thought (perhaps wrongly) that I was having a discussion with Meg who seemed to have some fairly detailed background knowledge of what Fera did and BeeJoyful who also seemed to know what they were talking about.

If I have got things wrong and the forum isn't for discussion between like minded and knowledgeable people I apologise.

there's discussion, and then there's asking someone on the forum for an answer on a department of government policy?

 

[Karol]

I would like to send apoligies to Karol for my post last night, it was unfounded and based on other things happening in my life, not based on anything worth considering here.
Please ignore what i said and listen to him as he will educate regards to wasps and the sensible control of them.

Having said that, he still didnt answer a question from last year that i posed to him. O
As a dedicated wasp controller (i dont do any other job such as rats etc) and probably one of a kind, i obviously get to zap one hell of a lot of wasp nest each year. Trust me when i say, i get sick of it.
Anyway, there was a question that was never resolved about the treatment of nests and guard wasps/facial recognition and nest entrance.

I have studied, filmed, photographed twiddled my thumbs after treating a nest and have not come across the scenario that you mentioned Karol.
I.E returning wasps abandoning the nest after guard wasps being killed.
I by no means want to start any argument or attack as i am still feeling bad about last nights outburst. But i am keen to understand your learnings and what exactly is happening.

From what i have witnessed, it goes like this, application of insectiside is carried out. Some panic is followed for around 5-10 minutes (danger time of getting stung) then as the treatment starts to take effect gaurd wasps obviously got the full brunt of the treatment are now dead. Returning wasps hover around entrance, but gradually re enter nest. Wasps in the nest that got the full on force of the treatment evacuate covered in treatment and blind, fly off in all directions dying.

I know you feel differently from this, but i would like to understand what i have seen time and again, and what you have seen from your studies.

Geniune question without alternate motive

Thank you for the apology which by the way is not warranted.

I will try to answer your question which is a little detailed. It may well be that the technique you use doesn't hit the sentry wasps in the way you imagine. There is a complex relationship between the sentry point and the nest itself predicated on the location of the nest. If the sentry point is divorced from the nest (e.g. in an attic space) it is quite possible to treat the nest and have foraging wasps return into the nest because the sentries are still 'viable'. It's also important to understand that there is independent traffic between the nest and sentry point which is independent of foraging wasps. (There are duty sentry wasps and reserve sentry wasps and they are continually swapping duties and continually communicating with the nest). All of which could give rise to you experiencing a different set of observations.

You asked how we reached our conclusions and why they are so different from your own experience. Well, there are four areas of research we did. First comes from having dusted nests and monitored returning foragers or rather their reluctance to enter and then dissipate. We observed similar patterns to you in certain situations (as explained above) and the effects were not consistent for the reasons suggested. Second, we have counted kill numbers in nests and generally found them not to exceed a few hundred wasps when there should have been thousands. Third, we have installed vaccums at nest entrances without affecting sentries and we've caught thousands (and not hundreds) and finally, we've monitored the duration of nuisance wasp seasons in theme parks etc which have proactive nest eradication programmes and eradicate nests before maturation only to observe that these places have extended nuisance wasp problems which have been brought forward by the creation of nuisance wasps.

I fully accept that there may be other explanations for our observations and am prepared to change our position. If I am certain about one thing concerning wasps it's that they never behave the way you expect and they constantly make me reassess my knowledge of them.

As a question back to you, have you ever had situations where you've been called back to re-treat a nest?

Kind regards,

Karol

 

[tonybloke]

thanks for another very informative post, Karol

 

[Robbie & Jans Bees]

Good stuff

as an ex lecturer in Enviromental Conservation wasps are in some way like bats its the amount of insects they consume in some ways to the gardener they help with the pests but to bee keepers they are pests. I look after the grounds at Derriford hospital in Plymouth we have trees around the pond which weep sap the hornets can be seen here in their hundreds. Karlo the information you have provided is fantastic great thanks.

Robbie

 

[Karol]

as an ex lecturer in Enviromental Conservation wasps are in some way like bats its the amount of insects they consume in some ways to the gardener they help with the pests but to bee keepers they are pests. I look after the grounds at Derriford hospital in Plymouth we have trees around the pond which weep sap the hornets can be seen here in their hundreds. Karlo the information you have provided is fantastic great thanks.

Robbie

This is where I'm going to be crucified for heresy. There is an argument that wasps are also beneficial for bees insofar as wasps will seek out and exploit colonies weakened through disease. Provided that this process remains in natural balance it should result in stronger and healthier hives albeit with a certain level of accepted losses on the way. (It's the bit about acceptable losses that challenges most bee keepers). There will always be situations which affect that balance. The effects of weather on wasp populations probably being the most significant. The use of low efficiency traps being another (insofar as they can precipitate collective attacks rather than incidental solitary attacks so they skew natural competition between defending bees and attacking wasps) and latterly, the use of certain pesticides and the link with CCS.

Regards,

Karol

 

[merylvingien]

As a question back to you, have you ever had situations where you've been called back to re-treat a nest?

Kind regards,

Karol

Thanks for detailed reply, i think this deserves further monitoring and investigation though.

I never normally say numbers on the internet, but you can read my private message that i sent to you a bit earlier, that will give you an idea of the number of nests that i treated last year. Out of that i probably had 5 call backs. I am curious now

 

[BeeJayBee]

Fair enough so why don't they approve a named hornet trap to ensure that the correct ones are used?

Because, as Meg said, it would be a commercial endorsement.

Sidestepping into a different area - sailors are advised to wear life jackets or buoyancy aids made to a certain standard, it's up to the buyer to choose which one. In the same, or a similar, way Fera advises that AFB spores can be destroyed by scorching or, for poly/plastic hives, by using 0.5% solution of sodium hypochlorite. It doesn't go as far as saying which brand blowtorch or bleach to buy.

If, and when, Asian Hornets arrive here there will no doubt be commercial traps available, it will be up to us to choose which to buy.

If there is an empty trap then there are two possible conclusions. Either there are no hornets or the traps aren't catching them the latter being the 'false negative'.

But if traps aren't set then, surely, it's as bad as putting our fingers in our ears and pretending it isn't happening?

The best that we can hope for is that the channel keeps the asian hornet from landing in the UK.

The Channel isn't a good barrier for flying insects, the right wind in the right direction will ensure that they get blown across from mainland Europe or they could hitch a ride on a yacht or ferry.

 

[thorn]

Tonybloke started this thread by saying that he had "received" a trap from FERA. That indicates that FERA are actually supplying the product, and so would seem to be an endorsement of it.

 

[Davidwd]

Any idea where i could buy one?

 

[Meg]

Oh crumbs - this is a really stirred hornets nest!!

By 'trapping to identify and not to kill', what I really meant was that this is just the first stage of things to see whether or not they have arrived in the UK as opposed to the way most people think of wasp traps working which generally seems to be to catch and kill as many as possible to stop them being a nuisance in a pub garden or wherever.

Dave, I don't know where you can buy one, except that I would suggest a search on the internet and then adapt another trap (for wasps perhaps) as per the Bee Base instructions.

Although I have a reasonable amount of information about FERA's work with regard to the Asian Hornets, I am not privy to everything. I will endeavour to get a few more answers for you all, but please be patient - particularly as it is now bank holiday weekend .

Meg

 

[justme]

you'd have been contacted by fera by now, i think. I was contacted by my SBI initially.

Hi. I'm a sentinel watsit also but at a group apiary that is 12 miles away so I dont get there as often as I would think is necessary. Because of this I didnt take up the offer, would be happy to have one at my home apiary but didnt think it relevant. What do you think? Nowhere near an obvious 'risk' point.

 

[Karol]

Hi. I'm a sentinel watsit also but at a group apiary that is 12 miles away so I dont get there as often as I would think is necessary. Because of this I didnt take up the offer, would be happy to have one at my home apiary but didnt think it relevant. What do you think? Nowhere near an obvious 'risk' point.

I don't understand why monitoring has to be near apiaries. The logic seems flawed to help attract hornets to apiaries.

 

[DanBee]

I don't understand why monitoring has to be near apiaries. The logic seems flawed to help attract hornets to apiaries.

No, monitoring is at apiaries near points of ingress. Beekeepers have a vested interest in paying attention for these, in a way that port/airport/freight operators do not. The logic is that it is the bees that attract the hornets.

 

[Karol]

No, monitoring is at apiaries near points of ingress. Beekeepers have a vested interest in paying attention for these, in a way that port/airport/freight operators do not. The logic is that it is the bees that attract the hornets.

So why use sweet baited traps?

The logic is flawed.

 

[Easy Beesy]

Karol
I assume the thought behind it is hornets initially attracted by bees but incidentally caught in trap. In using wasp bane contraption, the wasps are presumably not attracted just by trap (if they were we would hang them away from food outlets).

 

[Karol]

Karol
I assume the thought behind it is hornets initially attracted by bees but incidentally caught in trap. In using wasp bane contraption, the wasps are presumably not attracted just by trap (if they were we would hang them away from food outlets).

As a company we do not have direct experience of working with the asian hornet so can't confirm whether it behaves like a wasp or a hornet. The initial information seems to suggest that it behaves more like a wasp. Wasps are responsible for up to 10% ish of lost hives. It's difficult to get any data on how many hives are being lost in France to the asian hornet and whether this exceeds natural losses to wasps, i.e. whether there is a real problem or whether the asian hornet is out competing and replacing indigenous species without affecting overall losses.

Going on the information provided though, it would appear that the asian hornet behaves more like a wasp given that it is little bigger than Vespula germanica with a similar colony size. That being the case, then it should be possible to monitor for the asian hornet in sites away from hives and for this purpose low efficiency traps would be ideal. High efficiency traps in this situation are less likely to work than low efficiency traps because they are used to intercept wasps based on an understanding of wasp intentions.

The logic is flawed to use low efficiency traps near hives because the traps themselves attract more than they kill and so raise the background population of hornets in the area you want to protect. That raised background population of hornets will not only hunt your bees they will also steal your honey and over time this has the effect of increasing hornet population densities around your hives, i.e. increasing the overall number of colonies in your immediate vicinity over successive seasons. If you want to monitor near hives then I would strongly recommend the use of a high efficiency trap which will still intercept hornets but won't permit them to swarm in the vicintiy of the hives.

So those are the options. Low efficiency traps for monitoring placed far away from hives or high efficiency traps placed in the vicinity of hives for lower (but probably more natural) monitoring results.

 

[fian]

La velutina (avispa asiática) no da asco a nada, ya sea fruta o carne. Se distinguen claramente tres tiempos.
febrero abril. nido primario. La reina busca alimento dulce para la primera puesta.
El verano. Nido definitivo. Las obreras buscan alimento dulce para sucesivas nidadas.
Otoño. Las obreras buscan proteínas para criar nuevas reinas y machos.