hive autopsy

[Dookie]

Hi

I opened up my hive today, knowing that they died over winter. My question is what did they die from. The super was full anf the frame that i have taken a picture of had food on it as well. So i dont know what they died from. It looks like stravation but how did they starve if they had so much food.

 

[mbc]

Open some of that sealed brood and tease out the bees and I wager you'll find some dwv deformity.

 

[bontbee]

Hi Dookie,

Sorry about your bees; it's always a bummer to lose a colony.

It looks, to me, as if the colony was way too small to survive. Why it should have been so small needs a bit more information. What size was the colony at the last inspection in autumn, (when was that inspection?) Was there plenty of healthy worker brood? When and what was the varroa treatment? What is under those perforated cappings? Is there a queen in the remaining cluster? What size hive was the colony in?

Those are my initial thoughts on what I'd be asking myself, but I am sure someone with more knowledge will fill in the bits I've missed.

Chin up, though, new season of swarms around the corner, if you can't source bees elsewhere.

 

[Dookie]

It was a good size colony 10 frames in the brood box, i check in the autumn i dont know the exact date I would have to check my record book. Everything seemed good in the autumn i though they would make it. I treated them with apiguard like i normally do. I know they are just bees but I sad about lossing them

 

[Erichalfbee]

You've got perforated cappings typical of parasitic mite syndrome. Varroa did them in.
No need to destroy the frames
Horrid thing to see.....sorry

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

Sadly, I agree.

It's really important to do varroa drop counts a few weeks after treatment, as it doesn't always work.

I found that out the previous season when one hive had to be treated very late in the season, as the earlier intervention wasn't effective.

Hard way to learn, isn't it?

My commiserations. I've been lucky so far.
But there but by the grace of god go I.

Dusty

 

[Millet]

I hate this kind of post and it would maybe end me if i let it happen as it would have been my fault..
Cold and isolated .

 

[pargyle]

It's always sad when it happens - but it happens - don't beat yourself up about it. Looking back over your posts there are a few questions that arise ..

1.You mentioned that the hive that died out was 'vandalised' - is this the hive that's a dead out ? What exactly happened to it ?

2. I see also you did a split last year ... what was the queen like in this colony - did she lay well after the split ? There were some very poor matings last year because of the weather ... I can't see a queen in the cluster that is in the photo - did you find the body ?

3. Leaving a super on the top of the hive is done by some but did they have plenty of stores in the brood box going into winter ... and did you remember to take the queen excluder out ? I prefer to get a fully stored up brood box going into autumn and with nationals the best place for the super you left them with would be under the brood box so that they could move the stores up. Is the super you have on there still full of honey or is it now empty ?

It's easy to blame disease and varroa for dead outs (and I accept that it can be a very valid cause) but there's a lot of other factors that can lead to a colony collapsing over winter .. and sometimes to a new beekeeper what looks like a big colony is sometimes a small colony spread over a lot of frames.

If you treated them in autumn then they should have had a fairly light mite load and I have to say the bees on the frame do not look too unhealthy which begs another question:

4. Is your hive insulated ? Have you got a mesh floor and is there a hole in crownboard that is open ? ... bees need as much warmth as we can give them in winter.. the colder they are the more energy they need to keep warm and rear brood .. and sometimes cold bees wil be reluctant to move to where there are stores of food


Lots of questions for you to ask yourself and think about next year in your pre-winter preparations.

 

[madasafish]

Please check the open cells on the left upper with a matchstick and tell me they don't give a sticky residue which strings out.

(The only use of matchsticks worthwhile)

 

[Dookie]

Yep there was a sticky residue which strung out. So what does that mean?

 

[mbc]

Yep there was a sticky residue which strung out. So what does that mean?

Contact your sbi
+ make sure no other bees can rob the honey out while you're waiting for your sbi to get back to you. Contact details for your sbi will be on the beebase website.

It's unlikely, but possible that it's afb

 

[Millet]

Yep there was a sticky residue which strung out. So what does that mean?

Bad news American Foul Brood i believe. ?

 

[BeeJayBee]

Please check the open cells on the left upper with a matchstick and tell me they don't give a sticky residue which strings out.

(The only use of matchsticks worthwhile)

Yep there was a sticky residue which strung out. So what does that mean?

Contact your sbi
+ make sure no other bees can rob the honey out while you're waiting for your sbi to get back to you. Contact details for your sbi will be on the beebase website.

It's unlikely, but possible that it's afb

Make sure the hive is fully closed, so there is no risk of other bees trying to get in to get a free lunch by taking the remaining stores.

More information about the foulbroods on Beebase.
http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/index.cfm?pageid=88

You'll find your RBI and SBI via this page, put your postcode in the search box if you aren't sure which area you're in.
http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/public/Contacts/contacts.cfm?

Inspectors would rather come out to check and find it's a false alarm, than not be called because beekeepers are worried about wasting their time - and then find it was a genuine case. Let's hope it turns out to be nothing more than parasitic mite syndrome.

Well done, by the way, for asking and for posting the picture.

 

[pargyle]

I'm not convinced it's AFB .. Although I bow to Madasafish as he has recent (and dreadful) experience of it .. but there's no sign of the classic sunken cappings or the brown scaley bits that get left in the cells - there are a few perforated cappings but the holes in the cappings tend to be bigger and more jagged around the edges, with AFB, where the bees try to get the infected larvae out ... AFB becomes evident in sealed brood not open brood so those cells in the top left have not been capped off ? Unless I'm missing something ?

There are bees with their heads down in the cells which is classic starvation and starvation can come about as a result of foulbrood ...

However, photo's are not the best for identifying disease and I would certainly suggest that it is well worth getting the RBI in for a look to put your mind at rest ... or if it is foulbrood help you through the destruction process.

I've not heard of cases of foulbrood in Kent recently so let's hope that it's not and I'm sure everyone on here will feel the same ... whatever it is, seal the hive up and leave it alone until you get some expert help on site. Good luck.

 

[madasafish]

Yep there was a sticky residue which strung out. So what does that mean?

As advice above.

(Shiny cells top left (scale?) and broken cappings are classic signs of AFB..)

Hope I'm wrong..

Please let us know I am wrong...

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm not convinced it's AFB .. Although I bow to Madasafish as he has recent (and dreadful) experience of it .. but there's no sign of the classic sunken cappings or the brown scaley bits that get left in the cells - there are a few perforated cappings but the holes in the cappings tend to be bigger and more jagged around the edges, with AFB, where the bees try to get the infected larvae out ... AFB becomes evident in sealed brood not open brood so those cells in the top left have not been capped off ? Unless I'm missing something ?

There are bees with their heads down in the cells which is classic starvation and starvation can come about as a result of foulbrood ...

However, photo's are not the best for identifying disease and I would certainly suggest that it is well worth getting the RBI in for a look to put your mind at rest ... or if it is foulbrood help you through the destruction process.

I've not heard of cases of foulbrood in Kent recently so let's hope that it's not and I'm sure everyone on here will feel the same ... whatever it is, seal the hive up and leave it alone until you get some expert help on site. Good luck.

I agree with all that.
Bees head down can be trying to keep warm as well.
There are patches that look like salt granules sprinkled about (again, photo is not the best way to tell) which are varroa faeces.
Best of luck......

 

[mbc]

My first impression from the photo was that they'd dwindled out probably due to varroa, I still think this but of course this doesnt rule out foulbrood too.
Dead brood rots and will string out with a matchstick without being afb, a photo of the roping might help.

 

[Nige.Coll]

Hard to see from the pic but are the white specs in the cells eggs ?

If they are the queen failed and laying workers developed.

If you think there is any chance of afb then get it checked.

 

[Swarm]

.....

 

[Plenty of honey]

I agree with all that.
Bees head down can be trying to keep warm as well.
There are patches that look like salt granules sprinkled about (again, photo is not the best way to tell) which are varroa faeces.
Best of luck......

I agree too, i would say sick bees trying to go in a long winter that was just too damn warm in the autumn.
As many have discussed and i hold up my hand and say i too, waited for a "brood break" and i know my Varroa levels were high, I didn't treat until Late December with vaped oxalic acid.
Big mistake, we all know that bees that are made in the autumn, are the ones that will live until right now and in to April. If these are sick before going in to winter the colony has to struggle right from the start of autumn.
I lost a few like this, with lots a tiny salt like deposits in cells where the brood nest was and bees then died . like starvation , but not all at once. Also a few individual brood cells that didn't hatch out because the colony wasn't able to heat this last emerging brood, as the colony finally collapsed.
Couple this with the long wet mild winter, that for us, terminated in a fairly chilly February and March its not the best scenario.
This year i am treating after that harvest and again in October, then again in mid winter. I feel i have to get numbers down early and winter is more of a mopping up job. Well thats what i feel might have happened.
Just dont beat yourself up about it, its a right pain but you will have better bees this year for sure! Onwards and upwards.