Help! Bees left hive and moved into tree.

[antoniahk]

(I'm in Hong Kong, dealing with Asian Honeybees)

Having a bit of a panic - we brought our new bees and hive home just over a week ago and the bees seemed perfectly happy when we looked at them on Saturday. Today the hive is almost empty of bees, the remaining ones are angry, and an old tree stump (outside our house, on a busy path) is covered with bees. There has been no obvious swarm, but the bees seem to be going into the tree truck. Problem is that if they stay there someone will call pest control and they will be killed. Is there anything we can do? Can we chuck water on the tree to try and get the bees to leave and move somewhere safer (even if not back to the hive, there are other places they could move to without being sprayed and killed)? It's our first bees...

Any ideas? Thanks!

 

[Arfermo]

Haven't you got a local association to ask? There must be somebody knowledgeable and capable in the NT. From my own time in HK, the local non-beekers will probably want to fry and eat them if they can get there before Pest Control!!!! The only thing I can think of is to dig them out by sawing the trunk of the tree open. Dodgy though.

 

[Queens59]

Did they get around to laying or did some brood come in the hive?? If so try using the frame above their new entrance to tempt them out. Check out online pages on swarm collection...and as above look for a local association who may have a swarm collection officer - who is there to help...

 

[Heather]

Can you arrange some support round the tree to help balance it and place the brood box (with roof on) above the tree stump- they may climb up into it. Sugar spray a frame in there to entice them. Leave them to it for a few days to see what they have decided to do.

 

[antoniahk]

Thank you for the suggestions! The problem is that the location of the tree stump is by the side of a flight of steps in a public area, and I can't really attach anything to it and expect it to remain there.

The only experienced beekeeper we know is the farmer we got the bees from. Unfortunately he's a long way away and doesn't speak a word of English, and we don't know remotely enough Chinese to explain the situation over the phone.

What I've managed to do is pull out the middle of the tree (all rotten) and found the bees all huddled in a cavity at the bottom (this involved balancing on a ledge, in the dark, and sticking my arm deep into a tree full of bees, while trying not to attract attention from the neighbours) - I'm hoping this will make the bees lose interest in their new home and try somewhere else, as the top of the tree is now open. Am I right? If the bees find somewhere else to move to it won't be a disaster, just a fairly costly learning experience, but I would feel horribly guilty if they got sprayed by pest removal people. The hive has two frames with brood, and some bees were still there this afternoon, but not many. Is there a chance the escapee bees will come back? Should I just wait and see if the remaining ones can keep going? And then if all else fails just wait until the spring and try again? It's a big disappointment after a lot of planning.

 

[alanf]

What I've managed to do is pull out the middle of the tree (all rotten) and found the bees all huddled in a cavity at the bottom (this involved balancing on a ledge, in the dark, and sticking my arm deep into a tree full of bees.

Could you improvise a bee vac? There are plans and photos on the internet if you search.

Sounds like you do need somebody with local knowledge of swarming habits, local strains etc.

 

[Suzi Q]

Is there any way of positioning the brood box over the opened up tree stump? without the floor of course. If there is brood in there they might go back into it. And what about stores? Is there any in the brood box? If you were worried about proximity to neighbours you could stand guard over it. If they were going to go back up into the brood box should only take a few hours if that.

 

[Storm™]

Why cant he - if he can find the queen, cage her in the cage she came in, place her in the hive wired to a frame, dump as many bees as possible back in the hive (unrefined I know), and then feed like buggery to encourage staying which they should do anyway as the queens there. Search out the reason for leaving: another queen, not enough room, whatever and sort that. And then hope for the best.

Or just get a big cardboard box, dump what he can in the box and keep going back till he makes sure he has the queen and sort it out when he is back at the hive. Feed and leave for a couple of days to let settle and see what he has got ..... spare queen etc. Then do a ham fisted unite after dispatching the spare queen?

I'm just asking lol so dont rip into me too hard. Plus I am impervious to abuse atm i've been ordered to write my christmas list. The internet has been opened at the beekeeping site and I am not allowed to move until I have written and I quote "a long list"....

I mean if he doesn't do that he's going to lose anyway so whats the harm.

 

[chrismcd]

If you want a guess there was some old comb in the tree and the bees were feeling a bit swarmy, or just simply unhappy after all the excitement and moved into it as a proven safe haven.

The problem, as has been pointed out, is to get the queen back into your hive.

Scooping out handfulls is certainly an option, as is a bee vac if you can get one.

It sounds a bit late, but one tactic I have heard of is to fit a one way bee escape over the entrance hole of the tree and put the abandoned hive nearby. The bees that come out cannot get back in and will move to the hive as the only alternative.

Once most of the bees are out of the tree you stand a sporting chance of finding the queen, but I cannot say that I am optimistic.

If you do find her, put her back into the hive and place a queen excluder under the brood frame so she cannot abscond until some brood has been laid. If you find brood in the tree move it into the hive (wire it into frames)

Having lost swarms because they still felt restless despite having a nice new hive - I now put a queen excluder under the brood to keep her in. Coarse beekeeping but it works.

To be honest, by this stage I would not be too optimistic about locating the queen, but it is worth a try.

Bees absconding because they have been moved is by no means uncommon. Go back to your supplier and see whether he will give you another one - or perhaps a decent discount.

You have my sympathy, there is nothing quite as frustrating as watching your bees vanish into the wild blue yonder - but a lot of us have been there!

 

[antoniahk]

Again, thank you for the suggestions and advice. We did think about trying to scoop them up last night (I work full time, so didn't get back until after dark), but the bees were right at the bottom of the tree stump, and we couldn't work out how to possibly reach into the tree, and see what we were doing, without getting a faceful of angry bees).
The hive still has bees in it, but way less than half of what we started with, so I don't want to move it about and risk them all going. Also, the style of hive is like a box with only the top lid removable.
Anyway, we've now got a cloud of confused bees, so we will see what happens when the sun comes up properly. If they move up to the top of the stump I think we can get them, if not, I don't know. If a swarm finds a new home, it doesn't work out will they re-swarm? Like the next day?

 

[antoniahk]

OK, so my worst case scenario happened, someone called in the government who sprayed the tree. The bees were mostly outside the tree by then, but I suppose they got a lot of them, and presumably the queen. Of course, being government pest control workers called out early in the morning they probably didn't do a very thorough job, so there are probably lots of lost bees flying around the hillside. I was at work when all this happened, so after a good cry in the loo, I need to know what I can do now. There are still bees and brood in the hive, but not many bees at all - maybe a couple of hundred? (I haven't looked as haven't had enough daylight.) Is there any chance of so few remaining bees raising a new queen? Should I even look inside the hive or just let them get on undisturbed and see what happens? It gets down to about 5 degrees in the winter, but that won't be for a couple of months yet. Can a tiny number of bees survive that? Really, is there anything I could usefully be doing, or should I just take it as a painful learning experience?

 

[margob99]

By some of the comments you've made in posts in this thread, it seems possible that you have acquired bees but do not have any experience, or mentors, nor have done a basic/beginners beekeeping course.

If this is the case, I am sorry, but you need help.

It is heartbreaking for you, and stressful and cruel to the bees.

You will not get the right advice for your situation over there in Hong Kong, from a bunch of beekeepers in Britain. Your climate is different, your laws are different, your situation is entirely different to ours, and unless you stumble across someone in here who has lived and kept bees in HK, all we are going to do is confuse you and prolong the problem.

Get help! Google for a local beekeeping association, as quickly as possible. They will fall over themselves to come and help you - even if they can't help you specifically, they might just be able to save the bees.

Then get yourself on a beginners course. This is not a craft that can be learned "on the job" (at the expense of the bees) without having done some basic theory and networking with experienced beekeepers first. While it is true all beekeepers keep learning (at the expense of their bees) all through the many years they keep bees, most have learned what is essentially a practical craft at the hands of more experienced beeks.

I'm sorry to sound harsh, but - trust me - I did a beginners course, then I rushed off to get bees, and I too made a mistake in doing that too quickly.

 

[antoniahk]

You are exactly right. I have no experience keeping bees (much like the majority of new beekeepers, I suspect) and have no official qualifications (sorry, I missed that part of the rules). I am living in a country where only a handful of people keep bees, purely for the reason that there's no point, you can get all the cheap honey you need from China, just over the border. This is how it works here. There are a handful of people here who have recently started beekeeping, with the idea that it's a good thing to do. We're in that category. There is no local beekeeping association here. I understand that in the UK you can Google for bee-help, but it's not the same here. That's sort of why I came to this forum rather than BeezRUsHK. The farmers we have obtained bees from appear to be delighted that people are taking an interest in what they do.

I'm very, very grateful that so many people have tried to help with suggestions and ideas. I wasn't asking for advice on laws or climate, just on bees and how they behave.

We will make mistakes, but at least we are trying. I am very upset by the loss of our bees. In the spring I will return to the same bee farmers and get some more and try again.

 

[Suzi Q]

Sorry to hear about your bees, and I for one admire you for giving it a go in a country where there are so few amateur beekeepers. Best of luck next year and don't give up!

 

[antoniahk]

Thank you!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

AntoniaHK
Just to reassure you - I didn't go on a course before starting either - but I did a lot of studying and also lurked around this forum picking up stuff from more experienced beekeepers - start doing some serious reading, I know the bees are different out there but basic husbandry shouldn't be that different.
Guide to bees and honey by Ted Hooper and Practical Beekeeping by Clive de Bruyn are exellent books maybe someone out there knows of authors more local to your area.
Maybe the person you acquired the bees from will allow you to shadow him for a day or two, even if you don't share a common language a pointed finger is the same the whole world over (to a degree - watch the pedants rip into me now!!)
It's a rewarding pastime - stick at it

 

[tkwinston4]

AntoniaHK - perhaps if you know of a few people who are also starting out you could set up your own association? Put an advert out to see who is out there and fairly local. If you are all too far away to meet up perhaps you could swap email addresses and keep in contact that way?
I really does help to discuss things with other newbee's when you are starting out. I know it really helped me. You feel like you can ask the stupid questions to people who are also new rather than ask the experienced who have probably been asked a hundred times.
I am three years in and would still rather bounce ideas of the person in my village that started at the same time as me.

I know this does not help with your missing bees but its just an idea that popped into my mind.

By the way I got two frames of bees through last winter which was the hardest and coldest in a long time, so there is hope for your bees if you still have a queen.

Good luck x

 

[Swarm]

Hello Antoniahk,
Please understand that Margob99 was not being rude or offhand, the advice was standard stuff.
You are dealing with Apis Cerana which very few, if any, of us has experience with. My understanding is their colonies are quite a bit smaller than Apis Mellifera and I think I read somewhere that they are more inclined to abscond (don't quote me on that)
The situation you face now can hardly be made worse by looking in the hive, which is what I suggest you do to find out exactly what you are left with.
It could be the case that you have a queen waiting to emerge from/emerged from a queen cell. Look for signs of this. If you find a queen cell/s that has obviously been opened, leave them alone for a couple of weeks. You need to know the condition of the hive and whether the bees have stores.
Without telltale signs of a virgin queen, the colony, as small as it is, does sound doomed I'm afraid.
You should make the effort to visit the beefarmer and load up on all the info you can, you'll have to find a way around the language barrier. He will know far more about Asian bees and their behaviour than we do.
Wishing you good luck!

 

[richardbees]

Antonia, there's still hope as they don't (usually) swarm without leaving a viable queen cell behind, so hopefully there's one in your hive with enough bees to cover - but what do I know about Chinese bees! However, I shouldn't think there's now much you can do.....

Full marks for pluck in your attempts to get them out of the stump!

 

[antoniahk]

AntoniaHK - perhaps if you know of a few people who are also starting out you could set up your own association? Put an advert out to see who is out there and fairly local. If you are all too far away to meet up perhaps you could swap email addresses and keep in contact that way?

Thanks, yes, we've done that, but we're all pretty much complete beginners too. We'd read a lot in preparation for this, also internetted a lot. We've also spent a lot of the last week or so standing around swatting hornets and suchlike, which can be a problem here (not the cause of the disappearing bees, I'm sure, as they can't get into the hive). Since spending a large proportion of yesterday searching for example of this happening (and moaning Why? Why? Why? Rather a lot) I've found that it's certainly not unknown (for the whole hive to abscond), and if it was a swarm I've got a fairly good idea of what we're looking for in the hive when we go in, tomorrow morning.