Have you lost any colonies to pesticides in the last 3 years?

[Luminos]

Get a German Shepherd

 

[Chris B]

This is a new one on me- what is the best way to monitor a hive for sheep?

.

Place a velcro carpet all around the hive and measure the daily drop. Up to 4 sheep a day is okay.

 

[Karol]

Okay I see what you're saying. I wouldn't word it like that though. There is no root cause of nosema except nosema. But some bees will be more susceptible for various reasons - the most significant being genetic. Many bees have nosema but show no symptoms.

"There is no root cause of nosema except nosema" and "Many bees have nosema but show no symptoms" are contradictory statements. If nosema was the root cause then all bees would shows signs of infective nosema which clearly they don't. For nosema to take hold, bees have to be weakened to a point where their defense/immune systems can't cope with the fungal spores that they are constantly exposed to, be that weakening as a result of genetic, varroal, starvation or other causes.

 

[Into the lions den]

"There is no root cause of nosema except nosema" and "Many bees have nosema but show no symptoms" are contradictory statements.

Contradictory it may be......but it is so. Probably a majority of colonies carry nosema at sub symptomatic levels. Stress factors and genetic factors allow to go symptomatic.

It has been a major problem to beekeepers since the Dead Sea was merely the Off Colour Sea.

In other posts you query whether anyone has statistics to show long term trends in winter losses. We have those figures going back to 1950. There is no long term worsening of losses, indeed arguably a decline. Every year is different though, and you can pretty well predct the level of winter losses by the summer before, moderated by the severity or otherwise of the winter. No special need to introduce other factors. The model works pretty well without them.

The two biggest die offs we ever experienced were in 1964 ( my father spent much of the following season scraping fouled frames and applying acetic acid) and 1986. Many also had a big die off in c1980. More recent die offs, whilst significant, have not been on the scale of those seasons.

I also was interested in your extrapolation of the figures on the 'thought to be pesticides' group of three respondents, and seemed to be working as if this was hive deaths rather than beekeepers experiencing a questionable hive death.

There is no proof offered that these were indeed pesticide deaths, and no figures given, or sought, for how many hives it concerns. Without these figures, and thus percentages, all your figures are nonsensical. As they say about computers............crap in = crap out. 5% of beekeepers reporting one or more colony losses 'THOUGHT' to be pesticides related does not equate in any likely way to 5% losses. We just dont know, nor do we know if it even was pesticides. I see you seek to adopt to ones that experienced eyes attribute to other more likely causes and suggest they too are potential neonic cases. Even IF the three were to be true pesticide kills, the total for colonies is still tiny, and will be under 1% (maybe WAY under 1%).

Long term loss pattern is not elevated.
Bad queen mating years have happened sporadically since time immemorial..........simple single factoral reason......weather. Even this year the early bred queens (the ones raised while they WERE working a neonic treated source) mated normally. The mid to later season ones, when the weather gave very few windows to do the business, had poor results.

 

[Chris Luck]

I "voted" no.

Chris

 

[mbc]

Regards mating they need reasonably warm dry weather, above 18c for a few days at the right time, and only have a limited time in which they can get successfully mated....below average temperatures and rain nearly every day from april until the end of july does not help. Get the right weather conditions and there are no queen mating problems.

I think its also about the prevailing conditions when the drones are being reared, drones are the first larvae to suffer if theres any shortage of nutrition, pollen or nectar coming into the hive, and any deficiency during larval development will lead to a sub prime drone population and subsequent poor matings even if the weathers spiffing during mating.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Absolutely agree MBC .. good quality, well nourished and cared for drones are also of key importance.

 

[Karol]

I also was interested in your extrapolation of the figures on the 'thought to be pesticides' group of three respondents, and seemed to be working as if this was hive deaths rather than beekeepers experiencing a questionable hive death.

There is no proof offered that these were indeed pesticide deaths, and no figures given, or sought, for how many hives it concerns. Without these figures, and thus percentages, all your figures are nonsensical. As they say about computers............crap in = crap out. 5% of beekeepers reporting one or more colony losses 'THOUGHT' to be pesticides related does not equate in any likely way to 5% losses. We just dont know, nor do we know if it even was pesticides. I see you seek to adopt to ones that experienced eyes attribute to other more likely causes and suggest they too are potential neonic cases. Even IF the three were to be true pesticide kills, the total for colonies is still tiny, and will be under 1% (maybe WAY under 1%).

I've no idea what you're on about?

Looks like a case of reading what you expected to read rather than reading what was actually written!

 

[MuswellMetro]

Found a lot of moribund queen wasps under hive roofs this spring, more than i have ever seen before, the first thing i thought of was i bet you little rascals have been infected by neonics, but it also crossed my mind that it could be the change of weather from the unusually early hot march, suddenly changing to near freeezing cold wet weather at the start of april,and a complete lack of nectar secretion from flowers, lord knows where they could of found these neonics though,if thats what it was,the heather moors,gorse,grass around here are not treated with them as far as i am aware of.

i found the same, perhaps an average of two per hive roof, some had none others five

just wondered if the queen wasps were after the warmth or that they smelt the honey

 

[Hivemaker.]

just wondered if the queen wasps were after the warmth or that they smelt the honey

Apparently they were suffering from neonic poisoning very early on this season, which for some reason led them to seek shelter under hive roofs ect, even if there were no neonics on plants/crops anywhere in the area...they were finding the stuff somewhere.

Red Karols previous posts,he is the the expert when it comes to a wasps.

 

[Karol]

Apparently they were suffering from neonic poisoning very early on this season, which for some reason led them to seek shelter under hive roofs ect, even if there were no neonics on plants/crops anywhere in the area...they were finding the stuff somewhere.

Red Karols previous posts,he is the the expert when it comes to a wasps.

Cool use of selective miss quoting. Interesting behaviour from a moderator.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Could be the over dosing of neonics making me lose my sense of Direction.

 

[Karol]

Could be the over dosing of neonics making me lose my sense of Direction.

That's actually quite funny.

But I agree. What is a complex issue has become unidimensional which makes the debate a nonsense.

 

[Into the lions den]

I've no idea what you're on about?

Looks like a case of reading what you expected to read rather than reading what was actually written!

Your own posts.......41,43,45.....moderated somewhat by post49.

A loss rate of the level you describe in post 49 is, however, fairly normal. The losses are not cumulative, empty hives are routinely refilled during the season.

For personal or political reasons many beekeepers tend to underestimate actual losses.

Sitting here at gone 3AM on the computer......picked up a spectaclar case of the winter vomitting bug during my trip south (as did the others flying down from Scotland......) and just surfaced feeling not too bad for the first time since then. Going to hunt food.

 

[Finman]

.
Not last 30 years and not before that lost hives.

 

[Karol]

Your own posts.......41,43,45.....moderated somewhat by post49.

A loss rate of the level you describe in post 49 is, however, fairly normal. The losses are not cumulative, empty hives are routinely refilled during the season.

For personal or political reasons many beekeepers tend to underestimate actual losses.

Sitting here at gone 3AM on the computer......picked up a spectaclar case of the winter vomitting bug during my trip south (as did the others flying down from Scotland......) and just surfaced feeling not too bad for the first time since then. Going to hunt food.

Not nice. Wouldn't wish it on anyone! Glad to hear you're feeling better. (It's a good idea to keep Dioralyte handy these days as the bug has recently mutated and now strikes all year round .)

In my postings I was trying to make sense of the poll. I don't think there's a recognised baseline for natural losses so it's hard to understand at what point the data collected by the poll becomes significant. If baseline losses were at 5%, then anything above 15% over three years could be down to a common causal factor. If baseline losses were at 10%, this threshhold jumps to 27% over three years.

Hive losses from the poll are running at about 36% across all categories. I have no idea whether that is significant but given that it's over the past three years it doesn't include this year's weather effects on over wintering survival. That to me is interesting and needs a little quiet reflection.

As to my other postings, then the purpose was to highlight how difficult it is to differentiate the impact of sub lethal effects on other natural processes. Varroa infestation, nosema rates, queen and drone mating performance, starvation and arguably humming (or whatever else you call the vibration to generate heat over winter) will all be exacerbated by neonics at (sustained) field level doses. So if the baseline should be 10%, i.e. 27% over three years, is 36% significant especially when this figure doesn't include over wintering losses and bearing in mind regional and topographical variation in the use of neonics (you for example are fortunate to be protected by your proximity to moorland)? I have no idea. I also have no idea for example if there's a difference in the distribution of the losses which would indicate problems in areas where bees have longer exposure.

When all things are taken into consideration I don't think that the poll can be interpreted as there being no problem just as the poll can't be interpreted to say that there is a problem either.

 

[Chris Luck]

I think I've missed something here.

The question was.

Have you lost any colonies to pesticides in the last 3 years?

I answered no, meaning not to pesticides, not that some colonies hadn't failed due to other perfectly explainable causes that are in line with what I would expect when averaged out.

To me 10% winter losses are acceptable and say 15% V.Queen failure per annum when averaged out.

Chris

 

[oliver90owner]

15% V.Queen failure per annum

A non-starter for many (most?). Certainly for me. A colony would rarely be lost due to this - they would either be simply re-queened or used in a unite, not lost per se.

 

[DanBee]

Fungal infections are in the main secondary and not primary infections. Varroa is a common root cause of nosema.

Er what? I have serious misgivings about both statements.

Nosema is classed as a fungus now, but it is an odd beast, and until recently was classed as a protozoa. The RAS showed broad-scale distribution of nosema a & c, IIRC. It is a gut parasite (ish) that inhibits a bee's ability to digest/absorb protein from food, resulting in impaired glandular activity (esp. brood feeding) and shortened lifespan.

Varroa is not considered a "common root cause of nosema".

 

[Chris Luck]

A non-starter for many (most?). Certainly for me. A colony would rarely be lost due to this - they would either be simply re-queened or used in a unite, not lost per se.

Used in a unite is "lost" isn't it, that is the colony has gone, is no more and here few if any would bother with re queening, (other than immigrants).

Chris