Has anyone had worse overwintering by switching to poly?

[Finman]

EXACTLY.... you can not!

As Finnie our little snow pixie has said before... 2 hive owners for even 10 years experience can not compare to 100 hive owner for 5 years!

Too many variables.

But 5000 beekeepers cannot get different experiences from one same box.

Beekeeping is not so difficult that variables are too much.
.

 

[Fusion_power]

Beekeeping is not so difficult that variables are too much.

Yet when I read older literature, I find errors that propagated for 100 or more years. Just read Quinby and Langstroth to see what I mean. How many years did it take for someone to recognize why lack of water in winter is a problem? How many years did it take for someone to figure out why 35 mm frame spacing reduces swarming after Dadant proclaimed the effect over 100 years ago?

 

[TooBee...]

Your 5 minutes are up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ

That was very funny, and very apt
he'll not understand though, click on my YouTube link and it'll explain why he can't understand it

... by the way one of my wooden brood boxes has warped at the bottom, not much but enough for me to make sure that it is the bottom one of the pair.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I thought you wouldn't be able to last a whole days without going back to trolling.
If you're not hiding under your rock, you can't but help chuck a few at others.

 

[TooBee...]

...going back to trolling...

You clicked, didn't you...

 

[MuswellMetro]

getting back to the OP, during the 18c break in winter I inspected all my poly hives and also most of my wooden hives

No difference in the number of bees in either BUT the wooden hives had on average three frames of brood and the poly hives ( except one) didn't even have eggs, i suspect as they thought the did not need to make brood yet

 

[TooBee...]

getting back to the OP, during the 18c break in winter I inspected all my poly hives and also most of my wooden hives

No difference in the number of bees in either BUT the wooden hives had on average three frames of brood and the poly hives ( except one) didn't even have eggs, i suspect as they thought the did not need to make brood yet

Just think about this a bit, that actually may be an advantage, I mean my bees (in the wooden hives) were laying up a couple of weeks ago, frames of brood about to emerge, BUT over the past (now almost 10 days) they've been confined in their hives, and even if they could have flown, there's not that much to forage on, so maybe a later build up is better, for around the north of Ireland anyway???

MuswellMetro,
I assume that you have not been stimulating them at all by adding Spring Syrup or Patties to them?

 

[Finman]

How many years did it take for someone to recognize why lack of water in winter is a problem?

In my climate it is not a problem, not at least to the bees. Perhaps to some beekeeper. My bees are in the hive 5 months continuously and cannot get any water from outside or inside.

 

[Vortex]

I can't comment on full size hives, but I use Abelo 6 frame Langstroth Nucs in both single and double height configuration, and the bees overwinter better in the poly nuc than in a solid floor 18mm marine ply nuc.

 

[Poly Hive]

MM? That's what I used to find when I ran timber as well as poly. Quite frightening when first found as the question is of course why the difference?

Mobus decided it was water management. The poly is drier and so no need for the brooding to take up water. Was he right? That is another question.

By late April the poly units were well ahead of the timber by the way.

PH

 

[foghornleghorn]

MM? That's what I used to find when I ran timber as well as poly. Quite frightening when first found as the question is of course why the difference?

Mobus decided it was water management. The poly is drier and so no need for the brooding to take up water. Was he right? That is another question.

By late April the poly units were well ahead of the timber by the way.

PH

What sort of temperatures/weather did you usually have in the runup to the first inspection and the few weeks after until they got going?

Do you go straight from winter to spring or would you have much broken weather of 8-10c when they're getting started,

Often in the south east part of the country here we miss out on the first blasts of heat in spring and stay a little cooler than optimum but don't get the cooler weather they get further west/north either

 

[Poly Hive]

In Aberdeenshire and for that matter here in the borders I would think a harder Spring than you have having visited the south of Ireland it is softer there.

Today the bees have been flying but are now shut down again, and this is typical for us. Blinks of warmth then they switch off with the temp dropping. It will be like this for the next month or so if not more.

PH

 

[foghornleghorn]

In Aberdeenshire and for that matter here in the borders I would think a harder Spring than you have having visited the south of Ireland it is softer there.

Today the bees have been flying but are now shut down again, and this is typical for us. Blinks of warmth then they switch off with the temp dropping. It will be like this for the next month or so if not more.

PH

The timber hives are behaving more like that, the Poly's seem more intent to fly in still fairly marginal conditions. Out earlier and later in the day.

 

[Poly Hive]

A little bit of Leicestershire folklore from my late MIL.

It never warms up until the blackthorn blossom is over.

Its literally just coming into flower here now and we have found over the last 10 years or so that she was right.

PH

 

[Fusion_power]

Bickering going on in the background as usual. Best if it is ignored.

One of the key findings by Mobus was that combining two strong colonies for winter significantly amplified the lack of water from metabolic processes. The resulting extra large colonies suffered significant collapse as a result. This highlights the report of small colonies thriving in poly while large colonies thrive in wood.

Finman, I don't see you taking any actual steps to see if your colonies need water. What would it take to set up an experiment where you make water available to wintering colonies to see if they use it?

 

[Into the lions den]

LOL....the naysayers can naysay about the benefits of poly as much as they like....suits me just fine. They can keep up with the proud defence of outmoded gear however long they wish, and just hand the advantages over to those who make progress.

Have run poly now since 1997, big scale since 2000. Only ONE year since then did wood outperform poly on wintering, and in ZERO of these years did it outperform poly in terms of annual harvest. In the bad wintering year we took a disproportionate varroa hit in them as they were the latest treated, and they run a later brood cycle and thus go further up the curve than wood. But....losses run at about half the rate in poly than wood, in some years 25%...and spring average strength is better by some distance.

As stated elsewhere in the thread they are a LITTLE slower off the mark in spring but motor past the wood quite soon. They are never seen to be thirsty..and I have no idea why anyone should think that.

Also...we have NOT had a colder winter than last..it has been open and very little snow......and at this time we were combatting a set of three beasts from the east last year...then hit instant spring while the ground was a quagmire.

HM is being a little naughty referring to the vast amounts of wooden hives I am buying in...there is a specific set of circumstance for that. One is that it is in part a spring selling project in case of a problem from Brexit for our bee clients, so we can sell full colonies in new or second season new gear in time for the OSR, and the majority of UK beeks are still very conservative so like wood. Secondly we have acquired two new vast heather estates good for at least 50 apiaries combined, where the owner hates all forms of plastic, and we can ONLY get on to his ground if we use traditional materials.

So the choice to set up 750 new hives all in wood is dictated by circumstances completely unconnected to performance. Its landowner dictat, market forces, and added to that an unbelievable deal. If it were about performance it would be poly all the way.

Edited to add a footnote......
When I make these statements about poly I am often accused of plugging it for reasons of marketing. I have not sold poly in over a decade. I stopped when the market got very silly, with so many new incompatible moulds being brought out and it was obviously going all fragmented and would eventually end in a lot of failures. I am thus neutral on the argument from a money standpoint...not trying to sell anyone poly hives any more, and unless the market rationalises onto a single standard pattern, will not do so again.

 

[foghornleghorn]

LOL....the naysayers can naysay about the benefits of poly as much as they like....suits me just fine. They can keep up with the proud defence of outmoded gear however long they wish, and just hand the advantages over to those who make progress.

Have run poly now since 1997, big scale since 2000. Only ONE year since then did wood outperform poly on wintering, and in ZERO of these years did it outperform poly in terms of annual harvest. In the bad wintering year we took a disproportionate varroa hit in them as they were the latest treated, and they run a later brood cycle and thus go further up the curve than wood. But....losses run at about half the rate in poly than wood, in some years 25%...and spring average strength is better by some distance.

As stated elsewhere in the thread they are a LITTLE slower off the mark in spring but motor past the wood quite soon. They are never seen to be thirsty..and I have no idea why anyone should think that.

Also...we have NOT had a colder winter than last..it has been open and very little snow......and at this time we were combatting a set of three beasts from the east last year...then hit instant spring while the ground was a quagmire.

HM is being a little naughty referring to the vast amounts of wooden hives I am buying in...there is a specific set of circumstance for that. One is that it is in part a spring selling project in case of a problem from Brexit for our bee clients, so we can sell full colonies in new or second season new gear in time for the OSR, and the majority of UK beeks are still very conservative so like wood. Secondly we have acquired two new vast heather estates good for at least 50 apiaries combined, where the owner hates all forms of plastic, and we can ONLY get on to his ground if we use traditional materials.

So the choice to set up 750 new hives all in wood is dictated by circumstances completely unconnected to performance. Its landowner dictat, market forces, and added to that an unbelievable deal. If it were about performance it would be poly all the way.

Edited to add a footnote......
When I make these statements about poly I am often accused of plugging it for reasons of marketing. I have not sold poly in over a decade. I stopped when the market got very silly, with so many new incompatible moulds being brought out and it was obviously going all fragmented and would eventually end in a lot of failures. I am thus neutral on the argument from a money standpoint...not trying to sell anyone poly hives any more, and unless the market rationalises onto a single standard pattern, will not do so again.

Do you think a milder winter would make any difference to that? (Milder than your southern unit gets)

 

[JEP]

LOL....the naysayers can naysay about the benefits of poly as much as they like....suits me just fine. They can keep up with the proud defence of outmoded gear however long they wish, and just hand the advantages over to those who make progress.

Have run poly now since 1997, big scale since 2000. Only ONE year since then did wood outperform poly on wintering, and in ZERO of these years did it outperform poly in terms of annual harvest. In the bad wintering year we took a disproportionate varroa hit in them as they were the latest treated, and they run a later brood cycle and thus go further up the curve than wood. But....losses run at about half the rate in poly than wood, in some years 25%...and spring average strength is better by some distance.

As stated elsewhere in the thread they are a LITTLE slower off the mark in spring but motor past the wood quite soon. They are never seen to be thirsty..and I have no idea why anyone should think that.

Also...we have NOT had a colder winter than last..it has been open and very little snow......and at this time we were combatting a set of three beasts from the east last year...then hit instant spring while the ground was a quagmire.

HM is being a little naughty referring to the vast amounts of wooden hives I am buying in...there is a specific set of circumstance for that. One is that it is in part a spring selling project in case of a problem from Brexit for our bee clients, so we can sell full colonies in new or second season new gear in time for the OSR, and the majority of UK beeks are still very conservative so like wood. Secondly we have acquired two new vast heather estates good for at least 50 apiaries combined, where the owner hates all forms of plastic, and we can ONLY get on to his ground if we use traditional materials.

So the choice to set up 750 new hives all in wood is dictated by circumstances completely unconnected to performance. Its landowner dictat, market forces, and added to that an unbelievable deal. If it were about performance it would be poly all the way.

Edited to add a footnote......
When I make these statements about poly I am often accused of plugging it for reasons of marketing. I have not sold poly in over a decade. I stopped when the market got very silly, with so many new incompatible moulds being brought out and it was obviously going all fragmented and would eventually end in a lot of failures. I am thus neutral on the argument from a money standpoint...not trying to sell anyone poly hives any more, and unless the market rationalises onto a single standard pattern, will not do so again.

This is brilliant info Murray and I really appreciate you sharing it. If I may ask a couple of questions though it would help me clarify some of the possibilities I am considering.

1. Am I right in assuming your primary varroa control is a winter oxalic acid trickle? If so do you suspect as I do that clusters in poly hives are more likely to be broodless in the winter and thus benefit from this treatment more than colonies in wooden hives?

2. Do you take measures which cut back the strength of your strongest colonies in poly hives after the heather crop i.e. do you make up late nucs / splits in September and October with excess bees and brood from strong poly units?

 

[Poly Hive]

As I remember it it was not Mobus that did the experiments on colony size for winter it was Jeffree, though the work was done at Craibstone. Just put my hand on the booklet and yes it was.

Mobus thought the winter brooding in timber hives was partially driven by moisture, as in the colony wanted to dry the atmosphere.

PH

 

[Finman]

Finman, I don't see you taking any actual steps to see if your colonies need water. What would it take to set up an experiment where you make water available to wintering colonies to see if they use it?

They do well without giving water. I know that they like to drink water in winter, but I do not give them.