Guidance on "use" of Swarm Queen Cells

[HarryO]

A bit of guidance on use of queens created by colonies in anticipation of swarming I may be totally wrong about what I can or cannot do.
1. One of my colonies has swarmed. I collected and hived the swarm.

2. I now have colony from which the swarm emerged left with 8 sealed lovely Queen cells and an open QC charged with a small larvae.

3 So 9 potential Queens.

4.Most recommended remedial actions lead to the destruction of the Queen cells.

5.Could I not leave one QC in the original hive and take one frame with another QC and put in another new hive I have set up?

6.After moving position of hives to collect returning foragers. Lots of bees left even after swarm.

7. Later to unite a colony possibly with the swarm colony, dispatching old queen.

Are these viable actions given the instincts and behaviours of honey bees?

Supplemental question if I am allowed.

What is the experience of Wally Shaw's action to manually release all the queens at once (pulling queens) and letting the colony decide whom the want as queen.
it means I don't have to commit regicide!
Thank you for your interest.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What is the experience of Wally Shaw's action to manually release all the queens at once (pulling queens) and letting the colony decide whom the want as queen.

It's fine if you were away and missed the swarm by a few days and you are unsure whether one new queen has already emerged - it's then safer for them all to be released rather than risk a cast swarm.
T deliberately leave them for the purpose of letting them all out at once is, IMO a bit foolish.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

4.Most recommended remedial actions lead to the destruction of the Queen cells.

wich is the wisest move

5.Could I not leave one QC in the original hive and take one frame with another QC and put in another new hive I have set up?

yes

7. Later to unite a colony possibly with the swarm colony, dispatching old queen.

yes

 

[HarryO]

wich is the wisest move

yes

yes

Thank you very much for your prompt and precise reply.
Swarm occurred yesterday. As I have the equipment and know the original queen is not in the hive with the QCs (having collected the swarm AND searched the colony AND found no V Queens. or torn down cells etc.) I think I will try the actions I raised as questions.

This original colony/ is not of a "swarmy" character and of a good temperament and good honey producers (last year).

I think they swarmed because I did not put supers on because of weather continually up and down, in fact I fed with fondant (doh!) so space maybe became a factor.
I assume dispatching the new queens is wisest to reduce the propagation of "swarmy" queens/ colonies.
Thanks for advice/input.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I assume dispatching the new queens is wisest to reduce the propagation of "swarmy" queens/ colonies.

No - it's just because you want the colony to build back up as soon as possible to try and get a honey crop - so you only need one queen in the hive, keeping them all will just mean (if they mate successfully) you end up with a load of mediocre strength colonies going in to winter.
Just because a colony has swarmed, doesn't mean you have swarmy bees, just as using some of the swarm cells doesn't make the progeny swarmy.
You do sometimes get a line of queens that are swarmy - I had one which would swarm at the first opportunity - with only four or five frames of brood sometimes - the last time with a bare three frames of brood, so I quickly tore down all the QCs and popped in a decent QC from a neighbouring colony I was demarreeing

 

[HarryO]

No - it's just because you want the colony to build back up as soon as possible to try and get a honey crop - so you only need one queen in the hive, keeping them all will just mean (if they mate successfully) you end up with a load of mediocre strength colonies going in to winter.
Just because a colony has swarmed, doesn't mean you have swarmy bees, just as using some of the swarm cells doesn't make the progeny swarmy.
You do sometimes get a line of queens that are swarmy - I had one which would swarm at the first opportunity - with only four or five frames of brood sometimes - the last time with a bare three frames of brood, so I quickly tore down all the QCs and popped in a decent QC from a neighbouring colony I was demarreeing

That sounds horrendous to me. Thanks for the background to the logic of despatching Q's

 

[bpmurray]

A couple of things to consider:
- If you create new colonies from swarm cells, you run the risk of selecting for swarminess.
- Recent research has shown that queens from swarm cells are of superior quality compared to grafts or emergency cells.

So you have to balance these. You don't want queens that will swarm at the drop of a hat, but you do want good quality queens.

If I liked the queen, I'd use queen cages on the cells, and use them when they emerged healthy. Be very careful though: DO NOT OPEN THE CAGES OVER THE HIVE. I've seen so many folk drop multiple queens into the hive.

The cages I'm talking about are these: Queen Cage - Steel

 

[JamezF]

- If you create new colonies from swarm cells, you run the risk of selecting for swarminess.

I honestly wonder if people really have any idea what "swarminess" actually means, or if it's just something they say. Or perhaps if they've considered what the consequences of any alternative are.

- Recent research has shown that queens from swarm cells are of superior quality compared to grafts or emergency cells.

There's also research suggesting that there's no significant difference between queens raised from emergency cells in relatively new comb compared to those from swarm cells. The issue is how easy the bees find it to remodel the wax so they can build a suitable emergency queen cell. Comb that's been used many times and contains the residue of lots of pupa cases is apparently much harder for them to modify.

James

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I honestly wonder if people really have any idea what "swarminess" actually means, or if it's just something they say

If you create new colonies from swarm cells, you run the risk of selecting for swarminess.

why? all colonies instinct and objective is to swarm, it's the way they reproduce - there is no difference in genetics between a queen in a swarm cell and any other cell. It's different if you have a particular colony that is forever swarming at the drop of a hat - but then, as a beekeeper if you observe a colony like that, forget not breeding from it - you just get rid of the queen altogether.

 

[HarryO]

Whoops! Complete into a well known beekeeper phrase or saying. Ask any three beekeepers and get ............. answers.

But answers are always welcome for the inexperienced because we learn just how many combinations of what might happen there are and then we can worry about which one we have initiated.

 

[HarryO]

Of the 8 sealed cells I have been able to give 4 of them to local beekeepers that have found they have queenless colonies for whatever reason.

So the bees work in creating these queens has not gone to waste. And the local beekeepers have got local "mongrel East Riding Queens"

I will maintain one of the new queens in the parent hive and then at an appropriate time (for me, the bees, the weather etc etc. ) unite with the collected swarm, replacing the old "swarmed queen"

Thank you again for the info, experience, input and answers.

 

[Erichalfbee]

- If you create new colonies from swarm cells, you run the risk of selecting for swarminess.

I’m a lazy beekeeper and that’s the only way I’ve raised queens.

 

[JamezF]

why? all colonies instinct and objective is to swarm, it's the way they reproduce - there is no difference in genetics between a queen in a swarm cell and any other cell. It's different if you have a particular colony that is forever swarming at the drop of a hat - but then, as a beekeeper if you observe a colony like that, forget not breeding from it - you just get rid of the queen altogether.

It strikes me that were one to attempt to select against "swarminess" by only breeding from colonies that showed little propensity for swarming, what one might inadvertently be doing is selecting for less prolific queens, colonies that maintain a smaller brood nest and colony size and perhaps workers that tolerate aging queens beyond what might be considered ideal. All those could well contribute to a much reduced honey harvest. It may also be that one is selecting for colonies that tend to supercede rather than swarm, but that's possibly not desirable either. Producing queen cells for breeding from a group of colonies that prefer, or might only be capable of, raising only one at a time could be tricky.

James

 

[Curly green finger's]

It strikes me that were one to attempt to select against "swarminess" by only breeding from colonies that showed little propensity for swarming, what one might inadvertently be doing is selecting for less prolific queens, colonies that maintain a smaller brood nest and colony size and perhaps workers that tolerate aging queens beyond what might be considered ideal. All those could well contribute to a much reduced honey harvest. It may also be that one is selecting for colonies that tend to supercede rather than swarm, but that's possibly not desirable either. Producing queen cells for breeding from a group of colonies that prefer, or might only be capable of, raising only one at a time could be tricky.

James

Interesting this I have queens that will stay in a single brood build up slowly and ideal for the heather also stock that are prolific and have been on triple brood now split down to single brood , I would of thought most sensible breeders would have two lines of bees prolific and not so prolific .
My not so prolific stock have a tendency to supersede more so.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I would of thought most sensible breeders would have two lines of bees prolific and not so prolific .

 

[Erichalfbee]

I would of thought most sensible breeders would have two lines of bees prolific and not so prolific

Can you explain please?
Especially for the beginners.

 

[rook66]

Interesting this I have queens that will stay in a single brood build up slowly and ideal for the heather also stock that are prolific and have been on triple brood now split down to single brood , I would of thought most sensible breeders would have two lines of bees prolific and not so prolific .
My not so prolific stock have a tendency to supersede more so.

I consider bees that supercede regularly are trying to get rid of a problem

 

[Ian123]

Can you explain please?
Especially for the beginners.

I think the point Mark was making was that some areas would benefit from a frugal less prolific bee.
The Uk generally has a very moderate climate and in my area and experience big colonies gather more honey generally. Even in poor years when conditions allow they’ll take advantage when weather permits.
In some more remote areas (I don’t mean Kent) if your up a hill with miles of Heather or limited forage, you don’t want prolific colonies that are supporting/feeding large numbers all season long.Hence 1 of the reason some old AMM got referred to as the heather bee.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think the point Mark was making was that some areas would benefit from a frugal less prolific bee.
The Uk generally has a very moderate climate and in my area and experience big colonies gather more honey generally. Even in poor years when conditions allow they’ll take advantage when weather permits.
In some more remote areas (I don’t mean Kent) if your up a hill with miles of Heather or limited forage, you don’t want prolific colonies that are supporting/feeding large numbers all season long.Hence 1 of the reason some old AMM got referred to as the heather bee.

Thanks for that explanation which makes sense
If curly had said less prolific bee rather than queen I wouldn’t have had to ask.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I think the point Mark was making was that some areas would benefit from a frugal less prolific bee.
The Uk generally has a very moderate climate and in my area and experience big colonies gather more honey generally. Even in poor years when conditions allow they’ll take advantage when weather permits.
In some more remote areas (I don’t mean Kent) if your up a hill with miles of Heather or limited forage, you don’t want prolific colonies that are supporting/feeding large numbers all season long.Hence 1 of the reason some old AMM got referred to as the heather bee.

You got it mate you answered Dani’s question for me thanks