Getting the honey weight right

[m100]

Well I'm sure I could.......if only I could be bothered. It'll be under the false representation bit.

Having sold weighed goods and measured goods at shows for many years I've met more than my fair share of Trading Standards officers who tell the same story, so I have no reason to disbelieve it, you can please yourself.

So you sell a jar of honey to a customer...and then they complain there is too much honey in the jar?

Maybe all that extra weight meant that:

a) their arm fell off carrying it home
b) they were charged excess baggage by a rip off airline
c) their shoes wore out quicker
d) the shelf collapsed in the kitchen cupboard
e) the contents lasted too long
f) the handle of the knife/spoon used to retrieve honey from the jar got excessively sticky due to the excessive depth of honey in the jar
g) the bees complained

Trading Standards are often a pain in the proverbial but providing more consumer product, even significantly more than is marked on the jar hasn't, as far as I can tell ever been an offence.

 

[oliver90owner]

hasn't, as far as I can tell ever been an offence.

I believe that if you hunt throughh th tolerances allowed you will find that all items must be 'as described', so technically it will be an offence.

While there are not many who are likely to complain about geting more honey than they paid for, there are products which can give the wrong outcome if it is assumed to contain the right amount of product in each container. The laws are the same for honey as for any other product.

Regards, RAB

 

[JCBrum]

Let us take the example of a jar of honey labeled 454g which actually contains 500g.

I think m100 is saying that is difficult to see where this could cause a hazard of any sort, and therefore, if there was any breach of regulations, it would be a waste of time and money to bring an expensive prosecution. That is not what Trading Standards are about so the likelihood is nil.

However, now take a jar labeled 454g which contains 1Kg. The label is obviously wrong and that is probably a breach of some labeling regulation. The public are entitled to correct information on the label about the weight of the contents. Although it's still difficult to see any hazard, the wrong is gross, and I think in that case the regulators might do something about a persistent situation.

 

[Poly Hive]

It is an offence to over fill, not because of the customer but so that all the vendors are filling to the same point so as to have fair trading.

However I will repeat and you can please your selves but the Aberdeenshire Trading standards told me precisely the above.

I am passing it on in good faith. Remember it is nothing to do with the consumer but with the level playing field.

PH

 

[JCBrum]

Sounds Reasonable PH.

Incidentally, I'm told by the old-timers in our club, that if you are showing your honey you have to put more than the stipulated 454g in the jar, otherwise to much 'neck' is showing, and the judges will say the jar is 'not full' and disqualify it.

 

[Poly Hive]

A decent judge should have a set of scales to check that precisely.

As for reasonable it is but the law.

PH

 

[thurrock bees]

hi veg, i bottle my honey from the tank using the honey tap. on most jars there is a mark ( i.e. a seal joint). it is illeagal to sell under/over weight jars, but i believe that they are less likely to be bothered if over weight, the only time they get fussy on over weights are in pubs.
all i do is fill the jars to the neck of the jar and weight the odd one to make sure im on weight

 

[Rosti]

Reality check

Peeps, we all like a good debate but this thread is being un-necessarily over complicated!

"The producer may not knowingly or deliberately sell over weight product where to do so is to the detriment of the consumer or an attempt to strategically restrict long term market competition"

Home honey packers do not have the critical mass to influnece the wider commercial market either in units sold or geographic scope. A nominal one pound jar is just that so any over fill will likely be termed good value rather than an attempt to bankrupt Gales!

The risk of legal challenge for a light weight pack far, far, far exceeds any chance of a claim of deliberate market manipulation under commercial competition rules.

Frankly the bigger challenge and threat to home /small packers is under the Unified European Food Safety Directive, which requires all producers, whether or not for profit to have in place "suitable Hazard Analaysis and Critical Control Point management such as to prove all due diligence and all reasonable precautions from a food safety perspective". That in your domestic kitchen with the mogg'ies cat flap shut to celebrate 'bottling day' f is rather more of a challenge. Have you got your HACCP studies written up and at the ready?

 

[gtb]

Frankly the bigger challenge and threat to home /small packers is under the Unified European Food Safety Directive, which requires all producers, whether or not for profit to have in place "suitable Hazard Analaysis and Critical Control Point management such as to prove all due diligence and all reasonable precautions from a food safety perspective". That in your domestic kitchen with the mogg'ies cat flap shut to celebrate 'bottling day' f is rather more of a challenge. Have you got your HACCP studies written up and at the ready?

Being serious for a moment, do you think it is a good idea to have something on file? What are the chances that a small scale producer will ever cross paths with Standards?

Is there a simple self-certification questionnaire (or whatever) you can do to show due diligence?

 

[match]

I've just spent far too long reading up on all of this, and have found out some interesting things...

Firstly - metric versus imperial...

The regulations state:

The imperial equivalent may also be shown in addition to, but not instead of, the metric indication.

The metric indication must be more prominent, and for most packs it must be at least 4mm high. The imperial marking must be no larger than the metric one.

http://www.herefordshire.gov.uk/business/trading_standards/detail.aspx?id=122623&classification=Eng%3BBusi%3BAdv%3BFD

While the quantity restrictions have been lifted, you do still need the metric weight displayed.

Secondly - overfilling. While its an offence to deliberately mislead as to quantity, its a defence to overfill slightly for the purposes of avoiding under-filling:

Weights & Measures Act 1985 says:

29 Misrepresentation
(1)Subject to sections 33 to 37 below, any person who—
...
(c)in purporting to make known to the buyer the quantity of any goods sold
...
makes any misrepresentation whether oral or otherwise as to the quantity of the goods, or does any other act calculated to mislead a person buying or selling the goods as to the quantity of the goods, shall be guilty of an offence.

However, section 36 says:

36 - Excess due to precautions
In any proceedings for an offence under this Part of this Act or any instrument made under this Part, being an offence in respect of any excess in the quantity of any goods, it shall be a defence for the person charged to prove that the excess was attributable to the taking of measures reasonably necessary in order to avoid the commission of an offence in respect of a deficiency in those or other goods.

Hope this helps clear some things up!

 

[sherwood]

Just to add afurther complication for you to bear in mind I have found it nye on impossible to fit a pound of heather honey into a standard 1lb honey jar it just will not go and I have to declare a different weight on the label.

 

[Poly Hive]

The only conclusion I have for that one sherwood is that you have a load of air in it. Having bottled thousands of pounds of heather believe me it fits both standard squats and the fancy ones I used later on.

PH

 

[VEG]

all this is making my head hurt lol
So I think to be safe I will overfill a bit.

 

[Poly Hive]

Missing the point here Veg.

Overfilling is as dangerous (illegal) as underfilling or didn't you see that wee bit?

It has to be pretty much dead on.

PH

 

[VEG]

Not missing the point just that from what I have read so far it seems to be worse to underfill than overfill. I am only talking about a gram or two.

 

[Poly Hive]

[VID]it seems to be worse to underfill than overfill[/VID]

Precisely my point. Trading standards as I posted earlier consider over as bad as under. Both are equal faults in their eyes.

PH

 

[Hivemaker.]

Simply add min wt,before your weight.

 

[Rosti]

PH I think you are hanging on to a view point which is not objective, please re-read the posts. I deal with Trad Stds legislation (and teams) routinely in the day job. The prospect of any Trad Stds interest in the sort of give away we are talking about here and the context within which it is 'given away' is remote at best and defensible even if there is passing enforcement interest (which there won't be). Interest in calculated short weighting would not be viewed with any such ambivalence.

 

[oliver90owner]

Rosti,

Is what you are saying is 'yes' it is an offence but Trading standards 'would unlikely enforce unless there was a direct complaint'. A direct complaint is unlikely.

Regards, RAB

 

[thurrock bees]

What are the chances that a small scale producer will ever cross paths with Standards?

if believe ( and maybe wrong) the only time the trad. standards will knock on you door looking for you , is if they have recieved a complaint, i dont believe joe public will compain about having too much honey. but they will complain if your product makes them ill.


im more concerned about underweight jars and hygiene when processing honey in my kitchen. if some one came to me and complained about too much honey in a jar, i will tell them i will charge them more, i believe they will see they have a good deal. however i dont overfill as a matter of course, as im thinking that could make another jar up of lovely honey.