Gas vap worth it ?

[pargyle]

Nail and Head

Bang Bang ..

Ridiculous isn't it ?

What an interesting thread this has turned out to be ... a mile away from the OP's original question but isn't that the beauty of this forum.

And .. we are all playing nicely ... success !

 

[Murox]

We must be like a third world country. OA vaporization appears to be an accepted treatment in most of the rest of the EU.

Correct and still going backwards imo.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Succinctly put.
how do you prove you are using BSE/TSE free OA? . I very much doubt that there are many beekeepers who have even considered the risk of causing CJD in consumers of their honey as a consequence of their OA treatment?

Good God
Just come in from my morning apiary rounds and it looks like I've stepped into the matrix!!!

 

[Karol]

No, it's an accepted form of varroa treatment.
Apart from UK.

OA is a legally accepted form of varroa treatment in the UK as well but only if one uses the licensed form which presently contains other ingredients as well.

 

[roche]

OA is a legally accepted form of varroa treatment in the UK as well but only if one uses the licensed form which presently contains other ingredients as well.

So what is the crux here? What is the legislative difference that allows other countries to use OA in an un-licensed form? What needs to be changed in the UK?

 

[Karol]

Good God
Just come in from my morning apiary rounds and it looks like I've stepped into the matrix!!!

Doesn't it just. But when beekeepers call for a 'generic OA' to be licensed the prospective licence holder will have to take into consideration these requirements. That's why a licensed form of pure OA would like as not cost pretty much the same as the present combo licensed product.

Our MHRA inspector put it this way. When risk assessing anything not only do you have to be mindful of the likely consequences of anything going wrong but also whether you took reasonable measures to prevent the thing going wrong in the first place. Knowingly using unlicensed non medicinal grade OA instead of a licensed equivalent removes all legal defence should someone become sick (or even die) eating honey contaminated by the application of that OA. The upshot is that the hapless beek would be facing potentially a criminal manslaughter charge.

Each year when we source medicinal grade ingredients we find problems with the quality of a number of them which is why we test each and every one of them. Patients do die from poor quality ingredients being put on the market by unscrupulous thugs looking to make a killing by counterfeiting. There is no guarantee that unlicensed non medicinal grade OA is of the purity stated unless you can track the OA back to a bona-fide manufacturer.

Some of you may well roll your eyes and say what are the chances, but this is a sobering report (especially because the likes of BoJo is looking to create free ports with little or no restrictions on the trade of goods etc):

https://www.safemedicines.org/2019/04/300000-children-a-year.html

 

[Karol]

So what is the crux here? What is the legislative difference that allows other countries to use OA in an un-licensed form? What needs to be changed in the UK?

I'm not sure I agree with the premise of your leading question.

You have to ask yourself why the UK has these regulations (and indeed why it has been foisting them onto the EU for the past four decades). The answer is simple. Because it cares about protecting the safety of its citizens and learns from previous errors/mistakes/abuses etc and applies those lessons laterally on a precautionary basis to other activities which might be similarly affected.

So the question is, does the licensed product work in the manner stated as a varroa treatment. If the answer is yes then the use of unlicensed non medicinal OA cannot be justified in the event that something should go wrong. So OA used for treating wood might be produced by a chemicals manufacturer who also manufactures other wood treatments that contain arsenicals. How good are their cleaning processes and how would you know if some of the prior batch of arsenicals cross contaminated a batch of OA? For wood treatment no one would really care. Exposing bees that produce honey to arsenic contaminated OA on the other hand is a different matter.

 

[Beefriendly]

OA is a legally accepted form of varroa treatment in the UK as well but only if one uses the licensed form which presently contains other ingredients as well.

The point is in the rest of the EU generic off the shelf Oxalic acid (without any additives) is used as an approved varroa treatment. I'm sure the EU will have looked at possible links between OA and mad cow disease in beekeepers vaporising it as part of the initial risk assessment. Data probably buried in some Brussels sprouts. So I think you can rest easy on that one. . Remember also, any impurities in OA won't sublimate and hence don't enter the hive...as can be seen by the residue left behind when you've added glucose and silica to OA as in Apibioxal.
As Walrus asked" why does the UK have to involve money" before the VMD approves generic OA as treatment without the added ingredients which render it unfit for vaporisation?

 

[Newbeeneil]

Lol.....,I intend to upgrade the little chefs torch to a rothenberger plumbers 1 though. You could do hundreds of hives

I made several versions originally but could never get them to really work well with the chefs torch. So I have gone for a heavy duty one made from 22mm compression fittings. This takes the heat without melting the solder and works brilliantly!



Sorry I've been ill and only just caught up on this thread ��

 

[MartinL]

Think we've been here before but;

Has anyone read the MSDS?
Do these contraptions come with a risk assessment for use in the open??

This stuff is dangerous with a capital "F" when vaporised.

I'm with Enrico & don't have any interest in building some mickey mouse blow-torch attachment or buying one.

Unfortunately, the cops are too busy eating doughnuts to be interested in prosecuting the laws of the country.

 

[fatshark]

I don't make the rules. The MHRA do. They do so because several hundred patients have died from man made mad cow disease and you might be surprised how many chemicals come from bovine sources where there's a risk of prion contamination.

https://tinyurl.com/y57g6alo

Prions are not "man made" ... and (from wikipedia)

Oxalic acid is mainly manufactured by the oxidation of carbohydrates or glucose using nitric acid or air in the presence of vanadium pentoxide.

Not cows

There are lots of things derived from bovine sources, but OA isn't one of them. I'd be astounded if it has been tested for BSE/TSE's.

 

[Beefriendly]

So far, no vCJD patients were born after 1989.

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...uld-still-die-from-mad-cow-disease-in-the-uk/

 

[Karol]

The point is in the rest of the EU generic off the shelf Oxalic acid (without any additives) is used as an approved varroa treatment.

What do you mean by generic off the shelf OA? To be clear are you claiming that unlicensed non medicinal OA can be used in the rest of the EU legally in preference to the OA products that are actually licensed in the EU?

If so can you point me in the direction of the EU directive or law permitting such use. My understanding is that just as in the UK, in those EU nation states that have licensed OA products the licensed products must be used and use of unlicensed non medicinal OA is unlawful.

You might find this interesting:

https://tinyurl.com/y5zq9nzm

I'm sure the EU will have looked at possible links between OA and mad cow disease in beekeepers vaporising it as part of the initial risk assessment. Data probably buried in some Brussels sprouts. So I think you can rest easy on that one.

Which particular brand of OA do you think they have the data on?

Remember also, any impurities in OA won't sublimate and hence don't enter the hive...as can be seen by the residue left behind when you've added glucose and silica to OA as in Apibioxal.

Glucose does sublime as does HMF.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/je980119b

Arsenic also sublimes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK231019/

As Walrus asked" why does the UK have to involve money" before the VMD approves generic OA as treatment without the added ingredients which render it unfit for vaporisation?

? There is a license fee which is relatively cheap which is not the issue. The real cost of licensing comes from amassing the information to prove that the product is safe and fit for licensing.

 

[Karol]

Prions are not "man made" ... and (from wikipedia)

That's correct but the mad cow disease epidemic that lead to patients dying from CJD was caused by man because man managed to contaminate the food chain with BSE/TSE prions.

Oxalic acid is mainly manufactured by the oxidation of carbohydrates or glucose using nitric acid or air in the presence of vanadium pentoxide.

Not cows

There are lots of things derived from bovine sources, but OA isn't one of them. I'd be astounded if it has been tested for BSE/TSE's.

Whilst the manufacture of OA does not directly derive from bovine material, other chemicals might be manufactured from bovine sources using the same equipment leading to cross contamination with BSE/TSE prions. Hence with medicinal OA production, the manufacturers are controlled to ensure cross contamination cannot happen. Such levels of control don't exist with non medicinal manufacture of garden shed OA.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Martin,
Did you never take risks as a kid? Like playing with fireworks in the local woods, making explosives out of fertiliser and sugar or riding motorbikes without a helmet on some rough site without a helmet?
I use the appropriate precautions whist operating the vap and wouldn't use it in proximity of others. I certainly wouldn't sell a device!

 

[Beefriendly]

What part of the matrix are we talking about?
Rest of EU can use OA without addatives
... UK can't.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What part of the matrix are we talking about?
Rest of EU can use OA without addatives
... UK can't.

I'm just upset I can't eat my favourite dessert any more, Rhubarb crumble, just in case I catch mad cow disease - and I'm not even a cow!! (although maybe ever so slightly mad )

 

[maz0]

You have to ask yourself why the UK has these regulations (and indeed why it has been foisting them onto the EU for the past four decades). The answer is simple. Because it cares about protecting the safety of its citizens

I hope that was sarcasm Karol

Whole fiasco reminds me of when sodium chlorate was banned, a perfectly fine cheap as chips weed killer. Now all you can buy is over priced Roundup. Find the man with the fat wallet and you will find the source of the problem

 

[fatshark]

That's correct but the mad cow disease epidemic that lead to patients dying from CJD was caused by man because man managed to contaminate the food chain with BSE/TSE prions.



Whilst the manufacture of OA does not directly derive from bovine material, other chemicals might be manufactured from bovine sources using the same equipment leading to cross contamination with BSE/TSE prions. Hence with medicinal OA production, the manufacturers are controlled to ensure cross contamination cannot happen. Such levels of control don't exist with non medicinal manufacture of garden shed OA.

I think 'epidemic' is a bit strong. About 230 cases globally, with about 180 in the UK if I remember correctly, over ~25 years. Epidemic implies widespread in a community and within a reasonably narrow timeframe.

The interesting thing about vCJD is the relatively recent case in a Met/Val heterozygote. Until 2014 every case had been in Met/Met homozygotes for the PrP gene (encodes the prion protein). There may be more cases in heterozygotic individuals with much longer incubation times. >50% of the population are heterozygotes.

 

[Karol]

I think 'epidemic' is a bit strong. <snip>.

Mad cow disease resulted in hundreds of thousands of infected cattle resulting in over 4 million cattle being killed. I would define that as an epidemic.